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· Mentor
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, thanks to everyone who helped me get my Slimline5 up and aligned. This week I attempted to install my SWM8 to my receivers and it mostly all works except for OTA.

Here's my setup right now - HR20 connected to SWM-1 output of SWM8. I have a Channel Master 1-4 amp for the OTA signal. One of the OTA outputs goes to the OTA input on the SWM8. The legacy ports work fine, using my existing Eagle Aspen D2200 diplexers to combine the OTA signal with the SWM8 legacy output, and then split them back out again at the receiver. The problem is with the OTA on the SWM line.

When I use the D2200 diplexer - the HR20 locks up the picture, and signal goes to 0. However, either side by itself (SAT only or OTA only) works just fine! Just not both. I tried just connecting the SWM cable directly to SAT tuner (of course works fine) and also the OTA, which also works fine. So I decided to just try a 5-2300MHz all-power-passing splitter (not diplexer!). This works FINE. So I am confused. All the diagrams on dbstalk here show using SWS-2/4/8 splitters for the SWM output and then using a diplexer at each reciever to split off the OTA component of the SWM/OTA signal. However, in my experience, I should just use a normal splitter rather than a diplexer to "power" my OTA input on my HR20.

On my first floor, I do have the option of just splitting my OTA signal on a dedicated OTA RG6. However, my upstairs bedroom has one RG6, so I need to pull the OTA off the SWM output up there.

What are the recommended splitters/diplexers that work with the SWM8 module? I am basically saying here that the Eagle Aspen D2200 diplexers DO NOT work with the SWM8 and OTA. Apart from a recommended parts list, I have two questions:

1. With SWM and OTA - is there any difference in using a splitter instead of a diplexer at the IRD to connect the SAT1 and OTA inputs?

2. Does the diplexer/splitters with SWM need to be only ONE port power passive or ALL ports power passive?

Like I said, I was able to get this to work finally, but I'm a bit surprised the a 5-2300MHz splitter worked in the "diplexer" role and the D2200 diplexer doesn't appear to work at all with the SWM8 (but works just fine on the legacy RG6 cable runs).

--Rob
 

· Mentor
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I wanted to add this scenario but I didn't want to complicate my original post.

Using the D2200 diplexer, I connect ONLY the SAT side and tune a SAT channel. OK.
Tune to a local channel (9-1), no signal. (not connected)
Connect the OTA side of the diplexer to the OTA input on receiver. Picture OK. Diplexer is now fully hooked up and watching a OTA signal.

Change to a SAT channel - LOCK UP. Picture freezes. Signal stength is 0.
Attempt to change back to local 9-1 on OTA. ALSO locked up. Compltely unusable but no changes in cabling were made!

I am guessing that something in the diplexer signal might be in the 2.5MHz region and confusing the SWM control signals? Power passing problem? Or maybe the 90MHz "hole" in the combined output of the diplexer (see specs below). I don't believe I am picking up any interference on the OTA that might confuse the SWM control signals, since a dedicated OTA RG6 works just fine. The only failing scenario is using the D2200 and connecting both SAT/OTA tuners at the same time.

The Eagle Aspen D2200 is listed as a DC/22kHz passing on ONLY the SAT side, and the SAT side is rated 950-2300MHz and the TV output is 5-860 MHz.
 

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The SWM uses a return signal frequency of 2.3 MHz. It has been reported in other threads there that NAS makes a (edit)diplexer that passes 2.3 MHz along with the 22KHz lowpass. I THINK you could diplex the signals with a regular, high frequency splitter, but you probably should wait until someone here either affirms that they have successfuly diplexed these signals with splitters before you attempt to implement such diplexing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
veryoldschool said:
Since the diplexer works with only one cable connected, it sounds like it's "backward". OTA isn't going to change, but the SAT and input/output are worth swapping to see if that resolves it.
Just for the heck of it, I tried hooking it up "backwards". That is, the SAT out on the diplexer to the HR20 OTA input and the TV out on the diplexer to the SAT1 input. Satellite signals now work 100% but OTA signals are not found. (just the opposite when it's hooked up "correctly", but no picture lockups this way - just can't find the OTA channels on the OTA tuner.

I'm pretty sure this diplexer just doesn't work with SWM. If I bypass it using either two RG6 (one SWM and one OTA) or just splitting the SWM RG6 with a 5-2300MHz splitter, it works fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
AntAltMike said:
The SWM uses a return signalfrequency of 2.3 MHz. It has been reported in other threads there that NAS makes a splitter that passes 2.3 MHz along with the 22KHz lowpass. I THINK you could diplex the signals with a regular high frequency splitter, but you probably should wait until someone here either affirms that they have sucessfuly diplexes these signals with splitters before you attempt to implement such diplexing..
Just to clarify, I am diplexing two ways:
For my two legacy receivers, I am using the D2200 as a combiner with SWM Legacy output and Channel Master split OTA from antenna. At those two receivers, I am using D2200 as diplexer/splitters to drive SAT/OTA inputs on both receivers. This works fine and is almost exactly the same as my old 3LNB setup except for just getting the legacy sat signal from the SWM8 rather than my old 4x8 multiswitch.

For the HR20, I am diplexing/combing the OTA right at the SWM8 with its built in diplexer. I am not using the D2200 as a combiner on the SWM side. I am only using the D2200 here at the HR20 as a diplexer/splitter. Replacing the D2200 right at the receiver with a regular 5-2300MHz splitter works fine. I'm not sure what passing all the extra freqs to the OTA does (probably ignores it). However, the diplexer blocks the VHF/Ka-Lo band to the SAT1 input (by design) which is why these (diplexers in general) do not work at all with the 5LNB (no-SWM) setup. However, I was under the impression with the SWM and OTA being diplexed right at the SWM, that a diplexer would work (again), but it appears that even the SWM implementation is expecting something in the 200-850MHz range on the SAT1 input, so a normal diplexer doesn't work?

The suggested SWM8 hookup diagram on this very site shows using a diplexer to split the SWM/OTA signal out at the receiver, but does not specify what device the diplexer should be or any freq specs on each output of the diplexer. It seems that just splitting the SWM/OTA combined signal to both SAT and OTA tuners is all that is needed. From my experience so far with this, it appears to me that even when using the SWM wire, the SAT1 tuner still needs access to the Ka-Lo/VHF part of the spectrum, which the diplexer intentially blocks.

Does anyone know the exact frequencies that the SWM8 output uses? I think I read on here it goes up to 1.9GHz but not sure on the low end. Since the D2200 diplexer starts filtering the SAT output below 950MHz, anything below that if the SWM is using it will be blocked.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Duh, I think I answered my own question. The SAT output on the D2200 diplexer passes DC-22kHz and 950-2300MHz. Because of the 2.3MHz control signal, I bet this is what is getting blocked. 2.3MHz would only come out the TV side of the diplexer, or not at all (spec'd at 5-860MHz). Seems with SWM you need a different kind of diplexer, one that has the DC/22kHz part of the SAT output increased up to 3-5MHz instead of just passing the 22kHz. Unfortunately, this part of a diplexer is almost never documented (what is the upper limit of the DC/22kHz passband on the SAT output).

Since the SWM built-in diplexer has already combined the SAT and OTA signals in a "safe" way it knows will not collide with each other, it seems that just splitting the signal to both SAT and OTA tuners as long as all ports are power-passing works just fine.

Does the Channel Master 4001 diplexer work in this SWM/OTA setup? I haven't tried anything other than the EagleAspen D2200 because that is all that I have, but if I order anything else from solidsignal.com, I could just grab a few 4001s and see if those work instead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Okay, should be my last post on this issue. =)

I found other threads that talked about problems with the SWM OTA diplexer and VHF-2. The SAT side of my D2200 diplexer works as long as I do not hookup the OTA output of the diplexer. That tells me that the DC/22kHz shunt on the SAT side of the diplexer IS passing the 2.3MHz control signal or it wouldn't be working at all.

We do have a channel 2 broadcasting in this area, and I thought maybe the interference from Ch2 on the OTA side of the diplexer might be causing problems with the 2.3MHz control channel. However, if I conect my dedicated OTA RG6 to the HR20, I don't have problems, so I can only assume from all of this that the D2200 diplexer IS introducing some sort of interference at the low-end of the TV passband which corrupts the 2.3MHz control channel in some-way. It could be complicated because there is a Channel 2 in my area, I do not know, but I will try the IFD4001 or the NAS diplexer and if that doesn't work, it appears that just my high-freq SAT splitter will work just fine too.
 

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Although some folks have gotten diplexing to work for them now, DirecTv does not support or approve of diplexing with the SWM (Even though the SWM8 has an OTA input).
 

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The NAS diplexer is deliberately engineered to pass the 2.3 MHz to the correct port. NAS is a company that only supplies to commercial installation companies. Someone could buy one for you from NACE or PDI.

It has been posted elsewhere that the SWM center frequencies begin at 974 MHz and end at 1790 MHz. I forget how wide these transponders are, but they are wider than the Ku band transponders, which typically are about 27 or 28 MHz wide.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
AntAltMike said:
The NAS diplexer is deliberately engineered to pass the 2.3 MHz to the correct port. NAS is a company that only supplies to commercial installation companies. Someone could buy one for you from NACE or PDI.

It has been posted elsewhere that the SWM center frequencies begin at 974 MHz and end at 1790 MHz. I forget how wide these transponders are, but they are wider than the Ku band transponders, which typically are about 27 or 28 MHz wide.
Actually, I dug around and some of my Eagle Aspen diplexers are different from each other. Some of them are the D-2100LX model, rather than the D-2200 I mentioned earlier. I tried one of the D-2100LX diplexers and it works perfectly!!!

Summary: Eagle Aspen D-2200 diplexer (5-860/950-2300 DC/22kHz pass) does NOT work.
Eagle Aspen D-2100LX (40-850/960-2100 DC/22kHz) does WORK!

Since the biggest difference is the cutoff frequency on the TV side (5MHz vs 40MHz) this seems to confirm my theory that I was getting low-VHF interference on the OTA input possibly corrupting the 2.3MHz control signal.

Both diplexers work with SWM8 with the OTA input disconnected, so both do pass 2.3MHz just fine. The D-2200 must have other issues w.r.t. freq response.
 

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BTW, using a Channel Master CM4002IFD as a combining diplexer and a CM4001IFD as a splitting diplexer have worked perfectly for me since are started using SWM and the SWMLine LNB
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
jwd45244 said:
BTW, using a Channel Master CM4002IFD as a combining diplexer and a CM4001IFD as a splitting diplexer have worked perfectly for me since are started using SWM and the SWMLine LNB
Yeah, I don't know if such a beast exists but it would be nice to have a SWM-input, OTA-input, 4 or 8 channel output diplexer/combiner module, similar to the old 5x8s that could be used with the 3LNB. External diplexing the SWM module is going to quickly run out of room for me with that many discrete combiners plus the OTA splitter/amp unless I build a new panel. Heck, there is no technical reason a single device solution couldn't be built that would be a drop in replacement for something like an old 5x8 multiswitch - 4 sat inputs + 2 flex + OTA = SWM+OTA output X8. That would be sweet. :D

Such a thing should be possible for DirecTV to support in the future. The SWM uses DC, 22kHz, 2.3MHz and 960-1900MHz. Diplexing OTA onto the output of the SWM between 40-850MHz seems a perfectly safe thing to do, so it's strange that it's completely unsupported by DirecTV (I understand why, but it technically is just fine even if it's "too complicated" to support).

Based on advice in these forums, all future diplexers I purchase will be the Channel Master ones. It seems silly that the hardest part of my SWM install was recognizing that the D2200 diplexer just doesn't work with SWM (but it passes the 2.3MHz test).
 
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