Bad WB616 Multiswitch?

2097 Views 39 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Rich, Aug 24, 2008

seymouru

Discussion Starter · Aug 19, 2008

In Feb. 2008 I added two HR21-700s to my setup of five SD TiVos, including a new Slimline AU9 dish and a Zinwell WB616 multiswitch to replace a WB68.

Everything was fine until this past weekend, when all my TiVos suddenly showed the "Searching for Satellite" message, which usually indicates rain fade. Two things raised my concern: not a cloud in the sky, and the HR21-700s were coming in fine. I did a bunch of troubleshooting, and what fixed the problem was unplugging the WB616 to reset it.

Everything was fine until this afternoon, when it happened again. Except this time, resetting the WB616 didn't work. Still getting "Searching for Satellite" on the 5 TiVo's, and perfect signals on the HR21-700s. Does this suggest a bad multiswitch?

The other possibility I thought of was a low voltage problem. I live in a pretty old house (~70 years old), which was rewired about 20 years ago. The voltage reading on my Power Conditioner shows 109.6. But I would have thought HD signals would be more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than SD signals.

So I don't know where to turn. I'm considering just buying a new multiswitch, but I'd like to be sure that will fix the problem before shelling out the dough. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any help.

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Rich

· #2 · Aug 19, 2008

seymouru said:
In Feb. 2008 I added two HR21-700s to my setup of five SD TiVos, including a new Slimline AU9 dish and a Zinwell WB616 multiswitch to replace a WB68.

Everything was fine until this past weekend, when all my TiVos suddenly showed the "Searching for Satellite" message, which usually indicates rain fade. Two things raised my concern: not a cloud in the sky, and the HR21-700s were coming in fine. I did a bunch of troubleshooting, and what fixed the problem was unplugging the WB616 to reset it.

Everything was fine until this afternoon, when it happened again. Except this time, resetting the WB616 didn't work. Still getting "Searching for Satellite" on the 5 TiVo's, and perfect signals on the HR21-700s. Does this suggest a bad multiswitch?

The other possibility I thought of was a low voltage problem. I live in a pretty old house (~70 years old), which was rewired about 20 years ago. The voltage reading on my Power Conditioner shows 109.6. But I would have thought HD signals would be more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than SD signals.

So I don't know where to turn. I'm considering just buying a new multiswitch, but I'd like to be sure that will fix the problem before shelling out the dough. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Sounds like your power supply might be shot. This happened to me once. The installer placed "terminators" on the "flex ports" which are unused. Blew out the power supply in about a week. That was with 12 TiVos and HR20-700s hooked up to it. I removed the "terminators", pulled the resistor out of each one and put them back (just to block moisture) and used a 25VDC power supply with a coaxial connector built into it.

I forgot to look at where you live, but why are you operating on only 109VAC? Try bypassing the Power Conditioner and see if that helps. You can tell if the 6x16 is receiving voltage by the green LED that should be lit at all times. I have two of the 6x16s and (here we go again) have no use for UPSs, surge protectors, or voltage conditioners. All seven of my 20-21-700s and two 6x16s run perfectly at a steady 120VAC.

I'm an electrician by trade and most electrical devices are meant to run between 95 and 130VAC, but not for extended periods. 117-120VAC is ideal.

To anyone who wants to argue about my opinions about surge protectors, UPS systems or power conditioners, please don't bother. I WILL NOT argue with you. I think they are just "security blankets" and while I can understand the need for a UPS in some parts of the country, I don't use them and here in Jersey we have all that pretty much built into our part of the national grid. End of argument for me. Don't bother to argue further.

Rich

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seymouru

Discussion Starter · #3 · Aug 19, 2008

Update...about 15 minutes ago the signal suddenly returned to all my TiVos. The voltage reading now shows 113.8VAC.

I think the voltage fluctuations may be a result of old wiring, along with a central A/C unit that goes on and off pretty often, sucking huge chunks of power intermittently.

The LED on the AC adapter stays solid green all the time. Just to add to the confusion...

Thanks for posting, appreciate the input.

Rich

· #4 · Aug 19, 2008

seymouru said:
Update...about 15 minutes ago the signal suddenly returned to all my TiVos. The voltage reading now shows 113.8VAC.

I think the voltage fluctuations may be a result of old wiring, along with a central A/C unit that goes on and off pretty often, sucking huge chunks of power intermittently.

The LED on the AC adapter stays solid green all the time. Just to add to the confusion...

Thanks for posting, appreciate the input.

Again, try hooking the DVRs straight to the wall sockets and see if that solves your problem. Bypass the thing you are using. You still should be getting 117-120VAC from your sockets.

Your house wiring is a large parallel circuit and in parallel circuits voltage stays constant. Unless your DVRs are on the same circuit (of course I know his A/C unit is undoubtedly a 220VAC unit, but if his house wiring is old he might well be using one leg of the 220 circuit to power some receptacles) as the A/C unit you should not see a voltage drop.

You should not be running anything at less than it's rated voltage for any extended period of time. 113 volts is too low. Do you have a voltmeter? If so measure the voltage on your receptacles. If it is not 117-120 volts, call your power company.

Rich

RobertE

· #5 · Aug 19, 2008

rich584 said:
Again, try hooking the DVRs straight to the wall sockets and see if that solves your problem. Bypass the thing you are using. You still should be getting 117-120VAC from your sockets.

Your house wiring is a large parallel circuit and in parallel circuits voltage stays constant. Unless your DVRs are on the same circuit (of course I know his A/C unit is undoubtedly a 220VAC unit, but if his house wiring is old he might well be using one leg of the 220 circuit to power some receptacles) as the A/C unit you should not see a voltage drop.

You should not be running anything at less than it's rated voltage for any extended period of time. 113 volts is too low. Do you have a voltmeter? If so measure the voltage on your receptacles. If it is not 117-120 volts, call your power company.

Rich

Could be a power company issue further upstream. He could be getting just enough juice to make it. Then when a high load item, (AC, fridge, dryer, microwave) kicks on, he creates his own mini-brownout. Perhaps the Tivos are more sensitive to the undervolting than the HRs?

Just a shot in the dark.

seymouru

Discussion Starter · #6 · Aug 19, 2008

Some of the TiVos go through the Power Conditioner, and some don't. But they all spontaneously go out at the same time, and come back at the same. So it does seem somewhat like a mini-brownout that affects only the TiVos. I'll put a voltmeter to the wall sockets and see what's what. Thanks for the suggestions.

or270

· #7 · Aug 20, 2008

Is it just a Power Conditioner? if so it may not compensate for low voltage.
what is the model number?

seymouru

Discussion Starter · #8 · Aug 20, 2008

Belkin PureAV Home Theater Power Console PF60

or270

· #9 · Aug 20, 2008

Ok it does not look like it handles undervoltage, you might try a UPS/battery backup for the WB616 and see what happens,

What are your voltage readings when your AC is on and when it is not?

seymouru

Discussion Starter · #10 · Aug 20, 2008

Always between 108-114.

2dogz

· #11 · Aug 20, 2008

seymouru said:
Always between 108-114.

Bummer dude. The house might have been rewired, but the service from the street might still only be sized for 100 amps. Call the power company and explain your readings, too low. They fix this stuff for free most times. At the least they'll come out a help you determine the problem.

or270

· #12 · Aug 20, 2008

100 heck it might be 60amp, depends if the service drop was ever updated.

There are still some 30amp services around:eek2:

rudeney

· #13 · Aug 20, 2008

rich584 said:
Your house wiring is a large parallel circuit and in parallel circuits voltage stays constant. Unless your DVRs are on the same circuit (of course I know his A/C unit is undoubtedly a 220VAC unit, but if his house wiring is old he might well be using one leg of the 220 circuit to power some receptacles) as the A/C unit you should not see a voltage drop.

Actually, he will almost certainly be using one leg of the 240V circuit to power receptacles. His house is likely supplied with two-phase 240VAC service. One phase should be use to supply about half the circuits in his house with 120VAC and the other phase will supply the other half of his 120VAC circuits. His A/C compressor is likely using 240VAC, so it uses the potential across both phases.

The A/C compressor likely pulls a lot of current, especially upon start-up. Due to wiring resistance, there can be a voltage drop due when the A/C start or even while it's running. As you say, since the house is wired in parallel, that voltage drop will happen across all circuits. I would say that being an older house, older wiring with higher resistance may be the culprit, but he also mentioned it was rewired about 20 years ago.

So, Seymouru: I agree with Rich that anything less than 117VAC is too low and needs to be corrected. If it were me, I'd try to isolate the problem to either the power company's service or internal wiring. To do this, I'd shut off all the main breaker(s) and test the voltage at the panel entrance (you need to enlist the help of a qualified electrician for this). If it's below 117VAC, then I'd call the power company. If it's between 117 and 123, then you could try to isolate the problem with your internal wiring (again, with the help of a qualified electrician).

And back to the original problem, the "searching for signal", what are the signal strength readings when this happens? Have you tried to take the WB616 out of the loop and connect directly to the dish to see if that helps?

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paulman182

· #14 · Aug 20, 2008

rudeney said:
Actually, he will almost certainly be using one leg of the 240V circuit to power receptacles. His house is likely supplied with two-phase 240VAC service. One phase should be use to supply about half the circuits in his house with 120VAC and the other phase will supply the other half of his 120VAC circuits. His A/C compressor is likely using 240VAC, so it uses the potential across both phases.

Techncally, two-phase has not been used for many years. The service used today is three wire single phase.

There are indeed two 120V legs, but not two phases. I know this is OT but electricity can be a dangerous subject and we need to be correct in our comments.

Rich

· #15 · Aug 20, 2008

RobertE said:
Could be a power company issue further upstream. He could be getting just enough juice to make it. Then when a high load item, (AC, fridge, dryer, microwave) kicks on, he creates his own mini-brownout. Perhaps the Tivos are more sensitive to the undervolting than the HRs?

Just a shot in the dark.

And a good shot it was, Bob. Not enough info to make an opinion yet. That "power conditioner" scares me and I keep forgetting to see where he lives. Ever notice that everyone assumes that all posters (except Dolly, of course) are male? Be nice if everyone signed their names at least once in a while.

Rich

Rich

· #16 · Aug 20, 2008

rudeney said:
Actually, he will almost certainly be using one leg of the 240V circuit to power receptacles. His house is likely supplied with two-phase 240VAC service. One phase should be use to supply about half the circuits in his house with 120VAC and the other phase will supply the other half of his 120VAC circuits. His A/C compressor is likely using 240VAC, so it uses the potential across both phases.

Aw, Rodney. That whole paragraph is just wrong. Houses are supplied from a transformer that steps down the input to 220VAC single phase.

The A/C compressor likely pulls a lot of current, especially upon start-up. Due to wiring resistance, there can be a voltage drop due when the A/C start or even while it's running. As you say, since the house is wired in parallel, that voltage drop will happen across all circuits.

In parallel circuits the voltage remains constant. Only in a branch of that circuitry can the voltage vary. Look at a "ladder diagram" of a parallel circuit and you will see what I mean.

So, Seymouru: I agree with Rich that anything less than 117VAC is too low and needs to be corrected. If it were me, I'd try to isolate the problem to either the power company's service or internal wiring. To do this, I'd shut off all the main breaker(s) and test the voltage at the panel entrance (you need to enlist the help of a qualified electrician for this). If it's below 117VAC, then I'd call the power company. If it's between 117 and 123, then you could try to isolate the problem with your internal wiring (again, with the help of a qualified electrician).

OK, you got that right. He should be able to take several readings on several receptacles with a voltmeter AFTER shutting down the A/C unit. Then take the readings with the A/C unit back on. That will tell him if he is using a leg of the 220 to power his receptacles that he is using on the various DVRs.

And back to the original problem, the "searching for signal", what are the signal strength readings when this happens? Have you tried to take the WB616 out of the loop and connect directly to the dish to see if that helps?

That was a good suggestion. I was gonna suggest that after, only after, he gets his voltage up to where it belongs.

Rich

Rich

· #17 · Aug 20, 2008

paulman182 said:
Techncally, two-phase has not been used for many years. The service used today is three wire single phase.

There are indeed two 120V legs, but not two phases. I know this is OT but electricity can be a dangerous subject and we need to be correct in our comments.

Here's how it works: You connect to a transformer and are fed single phase 220 volts on two wires and the third wire is a neutral wire. Between the two "hot" wires you will always read 220 volts. Between either "hot" wire and the neutral wire you will read about 120 volts. Strictly speaking, there is no 120 volt feed.

Ever figure out how that Monoprice HDMI switcher wiped out my 1TB eSATA? I haven't and had hoped you would have enough interest to pursue it farther. It was working fine until I hooked up the switcher and took a couple days to wreck it. Fortunately the other two HRs with eSATAs I had hooked up to the switcher worked properly once the switcher was removed and are still working properly.

Rich

Rich

· #18 · Aug 20, 2008

or270 said:
Ok it does not look like it handles undervoltage, you might try a UPS/battery backup for the WB616 and see what happens,

What are your voltage readings when your AC is on and when it is not?

I really doubt that the multi-switch is the problem.

Rich

Rich

· #19 · Aug 20, 2008

seymouru said:
Some of the TiVos go through the Power Conditioner, and some don't. But they all spontaneously go out at the same time, and come back at the same. So it does seem somewhat like a mini-brownout that affects only the TiVos. I'll put a voltmeter to the wall sockets and see what's what. Thanks for the suggestions.

Please tell me the readings you got from the voltmeter. You should have placed the leads in the two vertical holes in the receptacle and noted that reading. Then place the one lead (doesn't matter which lead) in the "hot" vertical hole (which will be the smaller of the two vertical holes) and the ground hole and note your readings. The readings should be the same.

Rich

Rich

· #20 · Aug 20, 2008

seymouru said:
Always between 108-114.

Tell me how you checked those readings. I already posted the proper way. If you are getting only 114 volts start disconnecting devices thru out your house and check the voltage each time you make a disconnect. What kind of voltmeter are you using?

Rich

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