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Jeremy W said:
Considering the fact that there is clearly already a working TCP/IP stack on the HR20, there isn't much more work to do. And you should know that storing the guide on the HD instead of RAM isn't as simple as it sounds.
No one knows how much of a TCP/IP stack is "working" on the unit. I'd also not feel real comfortable giving an HR20 direct access to the 'net.

As far as storing the guide on the HD, what's not simple about that? The SLs and TDL are stored in tiny little files on the HD. Open a file, read that file, load the guide into RAM. Periodically reverse that process.
 

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Wolffpack said:
Get use to it guys. On the R15 side it can take 3-4 weeks for a new release to run through the country. You had it good when every Wednesday you all received the same update. Not so any more. Updates become less frequent and take longer to get. That's just the fact of life in the DTV world.
That's also a fact of life in the TiVo world.
:rolleyes:
 

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glennb said:
That's also a fact of life in the TiVo world.
:rolleyes:
Exactly. The number of HR20s in the field finally hit the point where a staggered rollout is needed. Plus it makes life a little easier if a new release needs to be pulled like they did with the last R15 release.
 

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It is amazing to me how many people try to force the download.

Why not just wait for it to get there when it is supposed to?
 

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Blitz68 said:
It is amazing to me how many people try to force the download.

Why not just wait for it to get there when it is supposed to?
I think they are just hopeful that the new software will help them with the problems they are suffering through. The sad thing is the 0xeb is no better than the last version and it looks like it introduced at least 1 new bug for me.
 

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It seems to me that alot of people who are forcing the download are having problems. There are people who are not forcing it and I am one that are not having any problems with the HR20.
 

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Blitz68 said:
It seems to me that alot of people who are forcing the download are having problems. There are people who are not forcing it and I am one that are not having any problems wit hthe HR20.
There is no difference between "forcing" the update, vs an automatic one.
They run the exact same procedure.

The automatic one, basically set's the flag BEFORE the unit restarts.
The forced one, set's the flag, before the boot-loader sequence checks the flag.

After that flag is checked, the exact same upgrade steps occur, as it is the same routine in both cases.
 

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I had rain-fade last night and the "searching for satellite" kept popping up while I was watching something from the list. It would have been nice to have the lastest software so I don't have to see that message except when watching live TV.
 

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Wolffpack said:
No one knows how much of a TCP/IP stack is "working" on the unit. I'd also not feel real comfortable giving an HR20 direct access to the 'net.
It's working well enough to grab an IP and advertise it's UPnP capabilities. And I wouldn't give anything direct access to the net, HR20 or not.
Wolffpack said:
As far as storing the guide on the HD, what's not simple about that?
It would probably involve rewriting a substantial amount of code that deals with the guide. Plus you'd get into speed issues. The HR20's guide is much faster than any Tivo's guide, and I'm sure that has something to do with the fact that the HR20 keeps the guide in RAM.
 

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RunnerFL said:
Take into consideration that the HR10-250 was SEVERAL versions after the first DirecTivo box. TiVo and D* had plenty of time to get the box right, years in fact, before release. D* only had one model's [R15] of research to go on prior to the HR20.

I don't think comparing the HR10-250's first day of release to the HR20's first day of release is even fair.
You are right, it is not fair to compare them - Because even the Tivo Phillips DVR7000 had all of its basic functionality working on the day it shipped into stores, unlike the HR20.

The DVR7000 was missing an enhanced feature, dual tuners, that worked correctly as soon as it was turned on.

It boggles my mind that people are willing to give a pass to something that is unreliable when compared to the product that it replaces. I feel for the people that traded in their HR10-250s and can't trust the replacement.

This "Give DTV a chance" mentality or the "they are trying hard" mentality puts no pressure on them to get the job done right.

Yeah - It's not fair to compare - One worked reliably from day one, the other (although sexier and faster) does not....
 

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Jeremy W said:
It's working well enough to grab an IP and advertise it's UPnP capabilities. And I wouldn't give anything direct access to the net, HR20 or not.

It would probably involve rewriting a substantial amount of code that deals with the guide. Plus you'd get into speed issues. The HR20's guide is much faster than any Tivo's guide, and I'm sure that has something to do with the fact that the HR20 keeps the guide in RAM.
Dumping the guide data to the hard drive periodically wouldn't need to make the guide slower. They could just dump the guide data to the HD now and then (enev once per day would be nice). They could still keep it (or portions of it) memory resident. Just because your writing it to the HD doesn't mean that you need to read it from the HD constantly. Just dump it to the HD now and then, and read it back into memory on boot up.
 

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bigviking said:
Dumping the guide data to the hard drive periodically wouldn't need to make the guide slower. They could just dump the guide data to the HD now and then (enev once per day would be nice). They could still keep it (or portions of it) memory resident. Just because your writing it to the HD doesn't mean that you need to read it from the HD constantly. Just dump it to the HD now and then, and read it back into memory on boot up.
It is called caching, not a new concept, not hard to do, you just need to know what you are doing. In theory they really it having the data cached would be a nice to have for equipment moves, in practice the stability and number of resets make the need for this more important.
 

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Jeremy W said:
It would probably involve rewriting a substantial amount of code that deals with the guide. Plus you'd get into speed issues. The HR20's guide is much faster than any Tivo's guide, and I'm sure that has something to do with the fact that the HR20 keeps the guide in RAM.
Misunderstanding here. I'm not proposing that the guide be stored and referenced from the HD. What I'm proposing is that the guide still be stored in RAM. No changes needed for any module that needs guide data. I'm also proposing that at some point (every 6-12 hours) the guide data that is stored in RAM is bit by bit copied out to a file on the HD. Finally I'm proposing that upon a reboot/reset the code be changed to grab the guide data from the HD if it exists. The unit performs a bit by bit copy from the HD copy of the guide data back into the section of RAM that is resides instead of starting to grab the data from the SAT. Logic to update the guide data can still then pull/update from the SAT but using this method would provide the customer will a 90% full guide on reboot.

EDIT: I guess I will add this. If the R15/HR20 could remain up and running without a reset for any period of time, this entire discussion would be moot. I reset my R15 every week to avoid problems. Just as a comparison, of my SD Tivos, they have been up and running without a reset/reboot for 35 days, 45 days, 56 days and 30 days. Again, this all comes back to the degree of reliability of a DVR.
 

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Agreed.

It really doesn't need to be 100% caching where every time the guide is updated the update is written to disk though. It's just important to get it to disk once in a while, and to re-load it into memory on boot up.

This should be trivial.
 

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DStern said:
You are right, it is not fair to compare them - Because even the Tivo Phillips DVR7000 had all of its basic functionality working on the day it shipped into stores, unlike the HR20.

The DVR7000 was missing an enhanced feature, dual tuners, that worked correctly as soon as it was turned on.

It boggles my mind that people are willing to give a pass to something that is unreliable when compared to the product that it replaces. I feel for the people that traded in their HR10-250s and can't trust the replacement.

This "Give DTV a chance" mentality or the "they are trying hard" mentality puts no pressure on them to get the job done right.

Yeah - It's not fair to compare - One worked reliably from day one, the other (although sexier and faster) does not....
You're not getting the point at all... Slow down and read for a moment instead of jumping to conclusions...

The HR10-250 was NOT the first TiVo on the market, not by a long shot.

The HR20-700 is the SECOND DVR for D*.

D* hasn't had near the time making DVR's that TiVo had before putting out their first HD DVR.

I am in NO WAY giving ANYONE a "pass". It boggles my mind how you think I said that in my post.

You're comparing Apples to Kiwi and it's not a fair comparison at all.

If you don't like the HR20 then give yours back to D* and get another HR10 on ebay, just don't come here and flame the HR20 or those of us who like the unit.
 

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RunnerFL said:
You're not getting the point at all... Slow down and read for a moment instead of jumping to conclusions...

The HR10-250 was NOT the first TiVo on the market, not by a long shot.

The HR20-700 is the SECOND DVR for D*.

D* hasn't had near the time making DVR's that TiVo had before putting out their first HD DVR.

I am in NO WAY giving ANYONE a "pass". It boggles my mind how you think I said that in my post.

You're comparing Apples to Kiwi and it's not a fair comparison at all.

If you don't like the HR20 then give yours back to D* and get another HR10 on ebay, just don't come here and flame the HR20 or those of us who like the unit.
I REALLY....REALLY try to keep out these pissing matches, but your comment are simply BS.

The R15 and HR20 are a DTV DVR that has followed successful DVRs such as UTV and DTivos. The DTV development team knew from the beginning what would be expected. Just because they made the stupid decision, as arrogant as it was, that they could even produce their own DVR doesn't give them the free pass that, yes, you are giving them.

Please...everyone....stop this. DTV knew what DTV customers expected from a DVR. DTV has provided those DVRs for years to us customers. When DTV made the decision to "do it ourselves" they should also know what investment that would take. They should also know not to release anything that has less reliability or any less functionality that what they currently offer. DTV screwed the pooch on that front.

The R15 and HR20 are not new DVRs in the sense that the development teams knew what was going to be expected from those units. Let's take a quick look at some issues:
  • Reliability: Past DTV DVRs (see, this includes UTV and Tivos) recorded and played what they were told to do. New DTV DVRs don't'.
  • Limits: All I can say to limits are "huh"? Past DTV DVRs didn't have any stinking limits.
  • History: Both the R15 and HR20 have history that is pretty much worth crap. I'm not sure about UTV but I know Tivos would tell you why something didn't record.
There's a few. DTV doesn't get any pass just because they brought development in house. It was a bad business decision and they need to be called on it and pay for that decision.
 

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RunnerFL said:
You're not getting the point at all... Slow down and read for a moment instead of jumping to conclusions...
I get the point just fine - You are a fanboy happy with a unreliable product.

RunnerFL said:
The HR10-250 was NOT the first TiVo on the market, not by a long shot.

The HR20-700 is the SECOND DVR for D*.

D* hasn't had near the time making DVR's that TiVo had before putting out their first HD DVR.
Ok - So because DTV has only shipped two PVR's (The same number of D* PVR's that Tivo has shipped,) we should forgive them for that the HR20 doesnt have reliable basic functionality?

RunnerFL said:
I am in NO WAY giving ANYONE a "pass". It boggles my mind how you think I said that in my post.
So you are not giving them a pass, we are just to understand that it is ok to ship an unreliable product in the market because they are the new kids on the block!

If I am missing something, please enlighten me...

You're comparing Apples to Kiwi and it's not a fair comparison at all.
So if I start a new car company and I release a car that is unreliable I should expect my customers to be happy because I am trying hard to compete with the experts?

RunnerFL said:
If you don't like the HR20 then give yours back to D* and get another HR10 on ebay, just don't come here and flame the HR20 or those of us who like the unit.
I tried to return mine for a refund twice, but they wouldn't do it. If someone would buy it I would sell it tomorrow.

The reason I started posting here was not to bait fanboys like you, but because I believe that the HR20 can be superior in Tivo in every way.

The reason I started posting was that I worry that since D* actually reads this board, and posters like you give the people screwing up gold stars, D* might start thinking the HR20 in its current condition doesn't stink.

Dave
 

· I used to be a rocket scientist
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Okay then - back on topic. Does anyone know if the national 0xEB rollout will be Wednesday the 15th as reported by several folks (heard from D* CSRs apparently)?
 

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Donnie Byrd said:
The thread has gotten way off-track guys. Back to the topic of the thread please. :D
Sorry Donnie, I like the new topic more :p

Oh, and yes, before the thread gets closed, I agree 1000% DStern.
 
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