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matto said:
are you seriously suggesting people have nothing better to do than post false reports about a random DVR which they don't own!?

that's some deep denial.

the only people who would take the time to register and post comments and ratings are people who have been affected strongly by the product- either positively or negatively.

the "outside agitator" theory really is absurd.
Not saying this is the case... And for the record I don't own a HR20. I actually mod on the 622 side but after reading this thread thought I should respond.

Not absurd at all. There have been reports where people have actually done this. Where groups of people within certain companies have fed a series of reviews positive or negative without even owning the product they are reviewing. I seem to recall an another writing a fake review of his own book and getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Here is a case where i think it is very applicable and I could see it happening. Not saying it has and like I said. I don't have an HR20 but I did have a Dish 921 and a lot of these threads seem very familiar.

Fanatic TIVO user joins D* and enjoys the fact he can use TIVO with his D* service. D* switches form his TIVO based technology. User dumps D* and is very angry with their decision. User sees the HR20 review and decides to jump on dog pile of disgruntle users. This scenario does not seem far fetched at all. Would i do it?? Nope.. But given the things I have seen in my years on the internet.. I know for a fact there are a number of people that would.

That is why... I may read user opinions of a certain product looking for common issues and use that in my equation.. But I am also very careful at how I read and always use multiple review sources and multiple sources for users opinions.

Yeck.. If one wonders around all the Satellite related and DVR related forums one would find different slants depending on the forum one walks into.

From my experience... It is amazing some of the stuff that people pull based on my experience... And I am sure Earl and Donnie viewpoints are similar.

Ok.. I am not saying that there is a not a large percentage of folks having issues with the unit. Obviously from the traffic there are people feeling pain and a lot of it.. but I believe.

1) A person having issues with a product is more likely to comment on a review rather then a person having excellent experience with a product.

2) A person having issues with a product is more likely to wonder off looking for reviews to comment than a happy customer.

It is the same with Forums....

To close... In my opinion, I disagree strongly that that only people that are really having issues or not having issues will take the time to register. Perhaps they are the majority then again.. Perhaps not.. This is the internet and one of the powers of the internet is all the different opinions of products as you research.. The downside is that anyone can right them and therefore it opens doors for both the reality based opinions and non-reality based opinions. I believe both are wild on the internet and I don't think that is absurd at all.

Well that is my 2 cents.. Just in case one might think I was flaming TIVO users.. I am not.. I understand his pain and personally if something I really enjoyed got changed I would not be happy myself. That was just the first example that came to my head of a situation where I would see someone do exactly what was described as being absurd.

Personally.. bottom line.. Is that we all have our experiences with products and there is a lot of info on the net... Does the info on the net reflect reality? That is the 64K question and my personal opinion is that it is but a snap shot and it may or may not be a true depiction.. One thing is certain though.... To each of us.. our personal experience is what we reflect on what we see... (IMHO).

Cheers.. it is late.. hopefully some of this makes some sense... Hope the guys on the other side of the fences feeling pain will soon have that pain eased..
 

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matto said:
Ron: Thank you for spending 2000 words basically blaming any bad review on "fanatic Tivo users".
Boy matto.. you really read more into post than really is there. Like I said.. that was one example that came to mind and there are a number of others... I was not blaming any bad review on a fanatic TIVO user.. Never stated it and if it was implied then all I have to say is that was not my intent.

I was stating a situation where a current customer is not happy with technical choices a company makes. The TIVO/DirecTV fan seemed to be like a reasonable scenario and it has nothing to do with putting blame on "Fanatic Tivo Users" for bad reviews. Personally I think their could be a number of motivations for a bad review being written and all of them are not "Bad Produce Experience" related. That is my opinion and ofcourse you are welcome to yours.

I was a Dish 921 user, Do a search on that product here and you will see very similar posts. You don't have to go back as far as Nick's post to find people grabbing a pitch fork and threating a Class Action suite for poor software. With the 921, customers went through a lot of pain.. I was one, was effected by it, and so I do bring perspective to my posting and not just some blind dribble.

I am sorry to hear that my post was miss-interpreted, my point was that there are other possibilities for a bad opinion or review and that they are all not sourced to personal experiences. Also, it is my opinion that though the forum areas are an excellent source for help and source for a data point in terms of issues people are seeing, it is also skewed to to the negative and to get the whole picture of the reliability of a product would require internal customer center knowledge that none of us posses.

This does not mean people are not having major issues with the HR20, it is obvious they are. But also, like others have said, everyone is not having these experiences. We all use our boxes in different scenarios, we all have different configurations, and as a result we all have a different user experiences. What makes forums like this important is that these experiences can be shared...

So.. the bottom line is... I was not blaming all bad review on fanatic users... Just one example I gave. Another one could be a Dish fan that decided to dog pile on the reviews. I could go on, but what is the point... You have the right to your opinion as so do I.. Yes another 2000 words... but figured I need to expand my opinion since obviously some read more into than my intention.
 

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HaiChinGow said:
You do realize that this forum itself is indicative of the overall problem. Soliciting Beta feedback through a non-official proxy shows that D* was not prepared to release a product that was not ready for market.
-hai
If this was the case, then the same would go for almost ever consumer device I know of. Does Canon have an official software reporting mechanism and Beta programs for their cameras? Sony? I am not aware of one. I know Dish does not and I am not aware of any of these type of mechanism from the cable side of the fence. Dish does have a Beta program but it is closed and from my understanding people that participate in it are under NDA.

From my experience, this type of situation is not uncommon for companies where software is a necessary evil (company perspective) to sell hardware or services. Software companies get it, but most hardware and service oriented companies don't. In this case, DirecTV is a content company and not even a hardware company so they are even further from a software company as I see it.

Yes it would be nice to see official software related communication with companies like this, but software to them is not primary (I have worked with hardware companies and now data delivery companies), it is a small piece in their eyes and one that rarely gets the focus it should. (From a software engineers perspective). This is not a DirecTV issue.. It is a issue of a lot of companies whose primary focus is not the delivery of software but the delivery of hardware or data through the use of software.

Since I don't frequent this forum.. Really can't comment on how your two statements are tied together.. From my vantage point.. I don't see the connection, but I don't have the details so I will let others that do have the context answer that question.

Yes I agree this area could much be improved with these type of companies.. But also, given the threads I have removed over the past year because of the nature of the content, I can also understand their hesitancy to jump into that abyss. ;)

<< Personal Opinion on purpose of DBSTalk>>>
I agree with you hai and this is one of the main areas that DBSTalk tries to fill by trying to create an environment were users can discuss their issues, look for work-arounds, get help from other users, and hopefully by providing constructive areas engineers from both D* and E* will frequent the forums and will use them as a tool to improve the products we use. The goal at DBSTalk is not to only provide threads of glowing opinions, It is to have users help users. From the Dish side of the fence, our support forums have a no bash rule, the main purpose of this rule is so those forums remains constructive and even toned so that the E* engineers don't have to wade through the bash rocks to get to the meat of the issues. I know if I had to, I personally would not hang around often. Maybe other engineers have no problem hearing "You guys suck", but I wouldn't stick around if I had to do that and from my perspective I want engineer eyes here because those are the eyes that will fix the issues.
<<<End of Persona OPinion of DBSTalk>>>
 

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tstarn said:
If Directv is a content company, why did it choose to make it own DVRs (or at least its own software to run those DVRs)? Can you explain it for me? They did have success with early Tivos (I own them) and the HR10, based on the comments I read on DBS Talk by people who own them. Both of those DVRs required software, I believe.
Well I don't work for D*, but the reason I believe they make their own DVRs(software for it) as does Dish is control and possible cost. Simple as that. There might be other business reasons, but my guess is those would be the two main ones. As for success with early Tivo units, yeap DirecTV at that point decided to license rather than build their own.

Let me clarify what I meant by content company. DirecTV and Dish are content companies in my opinion. Not hardware or software companies though they provide both. They sell content and to sell content they need delivery mechanisms like receivers and DVRs that require software. That was my point...
 

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HaiChinGow said:
You sir, are quite funny. I have done some checking and you should not make judgement calls in areas that you have not researched more carefully. If you weren't a MOD, I would consider putting you on my ignore list. Earl has talked about deleting users, and/or "giving them a vacation". Other mods, (look back a few posts) have also mentioned censoring or deleting due to views that were not consistent with dbstalk.

here is a quick litmus test for you, how would you feel if you were a D* investor? Would you still feel that the situation was handled correctly by using this proxy (dbstalk) as a method to manage an important release?
I hope you were not referring to me... Because that was not what I said. I suggest if you feel my comment indicated such, do a search on my name and Bash and you will understand my view though you might not agree with it and thats cool. But your take on my comment is not accurate at all. Simple as that. Infact, it is not accurate with any of the moderators here from my experience. Big difference between how something is said and removing posts because of a certain view. They are mutual exclusive to me.
 
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