DBSTalk Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Earl Bonovich said:
In those comments
There are some people that are very unhappy with it.
There are also people that are happy with it.

There are some people in those comments that just can't get past that it isn't a TiVo... there are others that are having problems, but can see the upside of the unit.

It is no different then it is here....

There are people all over the place.

And just like here, and a significant amount of other forums.
There is no validation of the users... so there is no way to tell if ANYONE has or doesn't have an HR20... There could be people fuelling the fire who have never actually used an HR20... there could also be people trying to put it out that don't have them either...

Welcome to the Forums, and the relatively anonymous internet.
Earl, check out some other CNET User reviews, for different electronics products. Any as low as 4.4 out of 10? If the HR20 reviews were representative of most products on CNET, the score wouldn't be nearly as low.

As for Directv's statement on CNET about the HR20 launch, what are they going to say in public? It stinks? Barring an 80 percent failure rate, which even I admit is out of the question, D* would never, ever admit that the problems were affecting even a relatively modest percentage of users (say 25 percent) because the negative PR would be very damaging financially. Anyway, we'll see how it goes. If somehow D* manages to right this ship, it's good for everyone. If not, they won't be able to support that statement as fact for very long. It isn't about the GUI, it's about reliable recording. Most people on this forum who have problems with the HR20 would gladly, even lovingly accept the UI if they could just get it to work as a successful DVR should.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
matto said:
are you seriously suggesting people have nothing better to do than post false reports about a random DVR which they don't own!?

that's some deep denial.

the only people who would take the time to register and post comments and ratings are people who have been affected strongly by the product- either positively or negatively.

the "outside agitator" theory really is absurd.
A good point. Think a bunch of Comcast stockholders are sabotaging the HR20? I would be willing to bet the folks who wrote negative reviews on CNET (including me, and it was an honest appraisal of my experience with the unit at the time) and Circuit City have had bad experiences, even discounting the ones who want Tivo back. Now, if it had received an 8 or 9 out of 10 from users...but it didn't happen.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Donnie Byrd said:
Not absurd at all. Not necessarily posting false reports, but there are those who enjoy "fueling" the fire. :rolleyes:
What fire would that be? Can you explain?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Yes, it's true the people with problems complain. Why not? It makes sense? But in all honesty, I don't agree that only the people with problems post reviews online.

Example:

I have a set of Etymotic ER6i headphones, and as I writes this, 201 people have reviewed them on Amazon.com with an average of 4 stars out of 5. The positives far outweigh the negatives. If only the so-called squeaky wheels bothered to file online reviews, then every product that garners any reviews would be deemed lousy.

No, when a product works as advertised and makes people happy they will report it just as much as someone with a problem. And that blows a major hole in the theory that only complainers/people with problems bother to do product reviews online. If someone loves a product, positive user reviews will far outweigh negative reviews.

Now, moving to the CNET user rating of 4.4 out of 10 with 50 reviewers. However unscientific, those user reviews reflect the fact that people are unhappy with the HR20. Not that someone "stacked the deck" against D*. Face it, if the HR20 worked as it should, there wold still be a smattering of negative reviews/opinions on feedback sites, but the wouldn't be the majority view.

On the Amazon Etymotic reviews, a tiny percentage of people said the headphones stunk, and sent them back. But the vast majority of people, including me, gave the product 5 stars. If the HR20 worked reliably for me from the start, I would have done the same for it.

User reviews certainly can have extreme views, but on balance, they do reflect the overall user experience. Logic tells you that.

There is no way 175 Etymotic "plants" bothered to send in reviews to tip the scales to the positive. No, that product is a good one, and people will report the good just as well as the bad. It happens again and again. Check the Panasonic plasma reviews, or the Shure E2C reviews. On balance, both get 4 out of 5 stars, with the Shures have 250 user reviews. Why? Because both are darn good products.

If you check user reviews against products, I'd wager that a positive review will jibe with the product's professional reviews as well, in most cases.

Not always on CNET, because their reviews are also based on a single person's experience. If you look at the difference between CNET's reviews and user reviews, there is often a ratings gap.

Overall, there is validity to user reviews. And that's the case with the HR20 as well. Same with Circuit City's user feedback. The extreme opinions reflect the experience of the users, just as they do on this board.

Having said that, D*'s official response was nothing but pathetic PR spin. Just admit there is a problem for an unacceptable number of users, and solve it. That's all anyone who has reviewed the HR20 negatively asks, with the few exceptions of those who want their Tivos.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
You can take any product out there and find reviews on just how good or how bad it is. I have owned many products that I have had few issues with that people say it's garbage and doesn't work or I had this problem and they refuse to do anything. When you can read the next review and it says it's the best product I have ever seen. I have seen MANY people post and say this is a bad product and come to find out they don't own it.

As Donnie said some people like to add fuel to the fire and some of those people are here. I for one don't like reading posts where people do this and add nothing beneficial to the community. I have no problems with negative comments when people have problems, but there is a line and I have watched many cross that line lately.
Disagree on your first statement. Sure, you can find individual reviews on either side of the fence, but overall, products that work well and deliver on their promises rise to the top and often reflect the consensus of reviewers. That's why products like Panasonic plasmas and Sony's latest batch of LCOS sets get good word of mouth/reviews. And you will find negative reviews on both, but not the majority.

Fuel to the fire? Because people aren't happy with their HR20s they complain? That just sounds like paranoia. Hope I didn't cross the line. It's not meant to be uncivil, but I just don't agree that every product has good and bad reviews, so on balance they mean absolutely nothing.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
HaiChinGow said:
You do realize that this forum itself is indicative of the overall problem. Soliciting Beta feedback through a non-official proxy shows that D* was not prepared to release a product that was not ready for market. What is frustrating for many people is the fact that they were not asked to participate in a Beta program, and then had to seek out somewhere to give feedback with the problems they were experiencing. I have particpated in many Beta programs and I conduct Beta programs as part of the release program for my products. In another thread, someone started a popular dicussion exclaiming that if they shipped software this buggy they would be fired. If I ran a Beta program this poorly, I would be fired.

People do have real issues with the HR20. I have owned many Consumer Electronics and I have never experienced the frustration of using them as I have with the HR20. It doesn't do what it was designed to do, reliably Record and Playback. Calls to to Customer Service add to the frustration. Again, D* wasn't prepared to handle the Beta issues through their normal CS channel. So, without any offical escalation and reponse mechanism in place, people are wandering into this forum to voice their concerns, seek resolution or validation of the problems they are seeing, and eventually venting their frustration outright or in back-handed comments.

You act is if you are surprised. Think it through from the average consumers point of view. Sure, there are people who will add fuel to fires just to see how high the flames will rise, but in most cases there are people who have reached a level of frustration with issues and have no official way to get resolution to those issues. So, dbstalk has set itself up as a an unofficial place to collect feedback and criticism for the HR20 Beta. Don't be surprised that many people view this dbstalk forum as yet another problem with the way that this release was handled. If there had been a proper method put in place, dbstalk wouldn't be part of the problem

Feel free to delete this post or remove my account if you feel I have crossed the line. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who feels this way and in time you can weed out the people who are critical of the way that dbstalk and D* handled the issue leaving only the people who give glowing accounts of how nice their units and experience have been.

-hai
Eloquent, on the money statement. Hai, you have spoken for many people here, but none of us had the right words. And I agree that some of the hostility flung around at this site is truly a reflection/result of the way D* has handled this entire launch. Now, their self-serving disinformation (the official response to CNET) just added, pardon the expression, even more fuel to the fire.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
matto said:
Gosh "Alvin", I've never seen you post anything but a troll, or an assertion that your perfect HR20 (handed to you by god himself) has never given you a single problem.

Thanks for the morning dose of irony.
Typical personal attack, devoid of any contribution to the debate in question. More of the same, in other words.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Ron Barry said:
If this was the case, then the same would go for almost ever consumer device I know of. Does Canon have an official software reporting mechanism and Beta programs for their cameras? Sony? I am not aware of one. I know Dish does not and I am not aware of any of these type of mechanism from the cable side of the fence. Dish does have a Beta program but it is closed and from my understanding people that participate in it are under NDA.

From my experience, this type of situation is not uncommon for companies where software is a necessary evil (company perspective) to sell hardware or services. Software companies get it, but most hardware and service oriented companies don't. In this case, DirecTV is a content company and not even a hardware company so they are even further from a software company as I see it.

Yes it would be nice to see official software related communication with companies like this, but software to them is not primary (I have worked with hardware companies and now data delivery companies), it is a small piece in their eyes and one that rarely gets the focus it should. (From a software engineers perspective). This is not a DirecTV issue.. It is a issue of a lot of companies.

Since I don't frequent this forum.. Really can't comment on how your two statements are tied together.. From my vantage point.. I don't see the connection, but I don't have the details so I will let others that do have the context answer that question.
If Directv is a content company, why did it choose to make it own DVRs (or at least its own software to run those DVRs)? Can you explain it for me? They did have success with early Tivos (I own them) and the HR10, based on the comments I read on DBS Talk by people who own them. Both of those DVRs required software, I believe.

Buying a Canon camera is a relatively simple prop, you buy it and if it doesn't work, you return it. The process is fairly easy. Not so with the HR20. The HR20 has a sub commitment attached to it, and it entails a much tougher return process (in the sense of going someplace else for an alternative). Changing digital camera or TV manufacturer is a simple step, with many alternatives. With D*, the choices are cable and E* or nothing (or fiber, if you are lucky enough to have it already). You have choice, but it's not very much choice. Even if you want to stay with D*, they no longer will even lease you and HR10. And even if they did, at some point, you would be compelled to get an HR20 if you want to record HD.

In fact, many of us who are experiencing problems with the HR20 actually like D* and its service, believe it or not. We were very happy customers until this launch. We just expected to get a product that works. Complex explanations/excuses, especially the "what'd you expect, it's a new product?" don't mean much to customers outside the realm of software developers/tech experts.

In the past 20 years, I've purchased way more tech gear than the average person, and I have never had an experience like this one. Well, there was the time I decided to install my own multimedia kit (sound card and CD drive) into a 133mhz Gateway computer. That took 12 hours (much of it spent on the phone with tech support), tons of sweat and much cursing, but in the end, it worked. Other than that, in my experience, returning a defective product (or even one you just didn't want due to buyer's remorse) required a simple RMA request and postage.

Anyway, these debates will go on forever. Hai's comments resonate with a lot of people on this site, whether you make the connection or not. Of course, many of us are not programmers or software experts. We only expected the HR20 to work as advertised. It doesn't. Not yet.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
Go look up almost any computer product out. Motherboards as an example, I know of MANY motherboards that are out there in HUGE numbers by very highend manufactures. You read the online reviews of consumers and you will see plenty of bad reviews some for varying reasons. Same can be said for cars, motorcycles and so on.

As you stated no matter how good a product is there will be bad reviews of it, there will also be good reviews. It's the nature of personal opinion. Yes this product has issues but not all issues cause problems for everyone, which in the computer field is a very common thing.

I'm not sure where you are going with the paranoia angle, I am not paranoid at all. I know some people have issues, I hope they will be fixed for all. Reality just tells me there will never be no problems for everyone. Heck I have a friend who his house was hit by lightning and his PC died. He blamed the PC manufacturer and now talks bad about them. Not sure how is was their fault and by the way I have seen him write bad reviews on placs like BB or CC websites because he doesn't like the company any longer.
Motherboards? I thought we were talking about consumer electronics products for general purpose use. Anyway, you missed my point: Simply stated, generally speaking, a majority of negative reviews usually reflect a poorly performing product (or one not meeting customer expectations). A majority of positive reviews represent a good product, one people like.

In the case of the HR20s, the majority of reviews at CNET and Circuit City are negative. I think it says something other than there are saboteurs out there poisoning the consensus. Sorry you didn't get the point. I thought you were saying that online reviews were mostly negative, but I do not agree.

One last time, if a product works well, the majority of reviews will be positive. If not, they will be negative. And not only negative experiences are communicated via online review opportunities.

Enough with the circular logic already. Bottom line, if a product gets good word of mouth, it generally will succeed.

The fact that Panasonic plasma TVs get a majority of positive reviews is based on many factors, personal taste being one of them, of course. But it's not because that opinion is 50-50 bad vs. good. It's because it's 90-10 or something like that towards the positive. So far, the reviews of the HR20 online are not even close to that number. It means something, and not just that only the complainers bother to post reviews.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Marcia_Brady said:
I hear sirens.

"Calling all mods....clean-up on aisle 7."
LOL
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
If you need to know the whole story he was hit by lightning and wanted them to replace the computer for free. He stated their product should be able to deal with problem like this since it is a consumer product.

I have seen many very good products that have darn near as many bad reviews as good ones.
I'd love to hear about those good products that have as many bad reviews as good. I'd be very interested in the specifics.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Ron Barry said:
Well I don't work for D*, but the reason I believe they make their own DVRs(software for it) as does Dish is control and possible cost. Simple as that. There might be other business reasons, but my guess is those would be the two main ones. As for success with early Tivo units, yeap DirecTV at that point decided to license rather than build their own.

Let me clarify what I meant by content company. DirecTV and Dish are content companies in my opinion. Not hardware or software companies though they provide both. They sell content and to sell content they need delivery mechanisms like receivers and DVRs that require software. That was my point...
I understood that point. But being content companies who depend on hardware, you'd think the latter would have as high a priority relative to customer satisfaction as the former. Its part and parcel of their business model, unlike say, movie studios or TV productions companies, who are pure content providers.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
Last I check motherboars where consumer electronics. If you are meaning things like the DVR, well I have read many good and bad reviews for SlingBox, some say it doesn't do what it's supposed to some love it. Heck much like many people here with the HR20 I waited a while before I picked up my slingbox. When I first got it I loved it, then an upgrade happened and I had nothing but problems, then yet another upgrade for it and most of the new problems went away and other things got even better.

My XBox360, has had multiple updates and I have read many horrible reviews on it some by people who are Sony fans and hate anything but Sony Consoles. My X360 has had some issues and those have been addresses. Heck I read the other day that MS released an update for the 360 that caused many of them to become bricks.

Like I said I feel your pain I know some glowing reviews and some bad reviews are out there for almost all products. I read plenty of them both bad and good before I bought my new cellphone but decided to take the chance anyway. I suffer for taking that chance sometimes and other times it's great.
I just wanted to know which good products were rated 50-50 bad vs. good. To me, if a product is in the 50-50 zone, on balance, it's not a good product. Call me naive.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
Last I check motherboars where consumer electronics. If you are meaning things like the DVR, well I have read many good and bad reviews for SlingBox, some say it doesn't do what it's supposed to some love it. Heck much like many people here with the HR20 I waited a while before I picked up my slingbox. When I first got it I loved it, then an upgrade happened and I had nothing but problems, then yet another upgrade for it and most of the new problems went away and other things got even better.

My XBox360, has had multiple updates and I have read many horrible reviews on it some by people who are Sony fans and hate anything but Sony Consoles. My X360 has had some issues and those have been addresses. Heck I read the other day that MS released an update for the 360 that caused many of them to become bricks.

Like I said I feel your pain I know some glowing reviews and some bad reviews are out there for almost all products. I read plenty of them both bad and good before I bought my new cellphone but decided to take the chance anyway. I suffer for taking that chance sometimes and other times it's great.
As for motherboards, I guess I consider them a specialty computer product, not a general consumer product. At least not one purchased directly. Call me uninformed.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
Clint Lamor said:
You can walk into almost any major electonics store now and pick them up. We are just splitting hairs though.
Splitting hairs, yes. But a motherboard is not your typical consumer electronics purchase was my only point. You used it as a comparable product to the HR20, at least in terms of user reviews. I guess I didn't believe it was an apples to apples comparison. But no big deal either way.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top