[JonFo]

...The fact is that the HR20 has had the smoothest launch of any of our previous DVRs including the TiVo HD DVR...

Ha, ha ha :lol:

Sorry, I've had D* since day 1 of availability, D* Tivo since Day 1, an HR10 since Day 1 and an HR20 since 30 days ago. No way in hell is that statement even close to true!
This thing can't reliably perform basic DVR functions. :nono2:

I was not expecting a Tivo experience from a non-tivo box, but I was expecting basic DVR functionality that works consistently. They are far, far away from that goal. :nono:

 

[Xaa]

I'm not having a bad experience {knocking on wood} and I've also had every iteration of DTV Dvr right at the beginning. I would say this has been as smooth as the HR10, but not as smooth as the DSR6000 which had a few pretty big bugs that were corrected quickly. We had to wait for the second tuner for a while, but it was solid. HR10, not so much.

Even though I would rate higher and I am skeptical of internet reviews. Four out of Ten is more than posers and multiple reviewers etc. It's a sign that even the happy users are at a lower end of happy and aren't pulling it up currently.

Keep the updates coming, shore this thing up and that number will rise in spite of any bashers, haters, or review tilters.

Xaa

 

[walters]

The numbers don't tell the whole story of the user reviews. Series3, for example, has a fairly low average, too. But go and look at the people giving it 1-4 out of 10: almost all of them are complaining about the price (which means they don't even have one). Frankly any review where the author doesn't even hide the fact that he doesn't have one should be deleted.

 

[Nick]

I have to laugh a little at all this criticism of the HR20 - so reminiscent of all the angry
posts about the Dishplayer PVR on DBSForums five or six years ago. I remember all
the D* subs hooting and hawing about the "POS" Dish DP and, as usual, how much
better DirecTV was, which didn't even have a PVR on the market at the time.

At one point, there was even some discussion of a 'class-action' suit against E*.
Through numerous software updates, the much maligned Dishplayer eventually
became a stable platform. I actually had two DPs in use at one time and was
extemely pleased with their performance, search features (wireless keyboard)
and the elegant design of the graphical interface, up until I switched to cable last
year for reasons unrelated to the DPs.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. :shrug:

 

[Starrbuck]

I have to laugh a little at all this criticism of the HR20 - so reminiscent of all the angry posts about the Dishplayer PVR on DBSForums five or six years ago.

Also very similar to the outcry about the early issues with the HR10-250s in 2004. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

 

[cookpr]

Goes to show what launching an unfinsihed box on the public can do. Those that dont come to these forums but have problems with the HR20 have to think it is terrible...Joe Consumer from Tennessee probaby isnt going to hunt down DBStalk.com to post...

Its only a matter of time before most will incur a minor problem or two...and for the folks 'upgrading' from SD TIVOs, I can imagine the angst.

I for one, like the HR20, but realize the avg consumer wont put up with this crap..

 

[Clint Lamor]

You can take any product out there and find reviews on just how good or how bad it is. I have owned many products that I have had few issues with that people say it's garbage and doesn't work or I had this problem and they refuse to do anything. When you can read the next review and it says it's the best product I have ever seen. I have seen MANY people post and say this is a bad product and come to find out they don't own it.

As Donnie said some people like to add fuel to the fire and some of those people are here. I for one don't like reading posts where people do this and add nothing beneficial to the community. I have no problems with negative comments when people have problems, but there is a line and I have watched many cross that line lately.

 

[Malibu13]

And, those who have "crossed", will soon speak. :lol:

 

[bluedogok]

You see it everywhere and about anything, it is just like the old sales mantra. Those that are happy will rarely say anything but those that are unhappy will let everyone know.

 

[Ron Barry]

Ron: Thank you for spending 2000 words basically blaming any bad review on "fanatic Tivo users".

Boy matto.. you really read more into post than really is there. Like I said.. that was one example that came to mind and there are a number of others... I was not blaming any bad review on a fanatic TIVO user.. Never stated it and if it was implied then all I have to say is that was not my intent.

I was stating a situation where a current customer is not happy with technical choices a company makes. The TIVO/DirecTV fan seemed to be like a reasonable scenario and it has nothing to do with putting blame on "Fanatic Tivo Users" for bad reviews. Personally I think their could be a number of motivations for a bad review being written and all of them are not "Bad Produce Experience" related. That is my opinion and ofcourse you are welcome to yours.

I was a Dish 921 user, Do a search on that product here and you will see very similar posts. You don't have to go back as far as Nick's post to find people grabbing a pitch fork and threating a Class Action suite for poor software. With the 921, customers went through a lot of pain.. I was one, was effected by it, and so I do bring perspective to my posting and not just some blind dribble.

I am sorry to hear that my post was miss-interpreted, my point was that there are other possibilities for a bad opinion or review and that they are all not sourced to personal experiences. Also, it is my opinion that though the forum areas are an excellent source for help and source for a data point in terms of issues people are seeing, it is also skewed to to the negative and to get the whole picture of the reliability of a product would require internal customer center knowledge that none of us posses.

This does not mean people are not having major issues with the HR20, it is obvious they are. But also, like others have said, everyone is not having these experiences. We all use our boxes in different scenarios, we all have different configurations, and as a result we all have a different user experiences. What makes forums like this important is that these experiences can be shared...

So.. the bottom line is... I was not blaming all bad review on fanatic users... Just one example I gave. Another one could be a Dish fan that decided to dog pile on the reviews. I could go on, but what is the point... You have the right to your opinion as so do I.. Yes another 2000 words... but figured I need to expand my opinion since obviously some read more into than my intention.

 

[Herdfan]

Also very similar to the outcry about the early issues with the HR10-250s in 2004.

Big difference. The issue with the HR10 was for the most part hardware related (HDMI). Yes there were some HDMI sync issues with certain TV's that could have been software related, but component cables were a viable option.

My original (May 2004) box had a bad HDMI and was swapped and that box is still going strong and has missed only one recording due to bad guide data.

I for one, like the HR20, but realize the avg consumer wont put up with this crap..

This box is not aimed at the average consumer. It is aimed at the higher end sub. Most subs D* sub still don't have any DVR. And that high end sub who has been waiting for a way to record MPEG-4 locals is not going to put up with a DVR that only does it part time.

That same high-end sub who has several thousand of dollars invested in HT gear isn't going to bat an eye at the pro-rated cancellation fee of $300 either.

I love my TiVo's. I have 6 of them plus one HR20. But I love them because I can count on them to record every show every time. I could care less about suggestions or any of that other crap.

I like my HR20 and as of yet I haven't had any real issues. It records what I have asked it to, but I haven't pushed the limit either. But at this time I don't trust it to record anything I really want to watch.

 

[tstarn]

Yes, it's true the people with problems complain. Why not? It makes sense? But in all honesty, I don't agree that only the people with problems post reviews online.

Example:

I have a set of Etymotic ER6i headphones, and as I writes this, 201 people have reviewed them on Amazon.com with an average of 4 stars out of 5. The positives far outweigh the negatives. If only the so-called squeaky wheels bothered to file online reviews, then every product that garners any reviews would be deemed lousy.

No, when a product works as advertised and makes people happy they will report it just as much as someone with a problem. And that blows a major hole in the theory that only complainers/people with problems bother to do product reviews online. If someone loves a product, positive user reviews will far outweigh negative reviews.

Now, moving to the CNET user rating of 4.4 out of 10 with 50 reviewers. However unscientific, those user reviews reflect the fact that people are unhappy with the HR20. Not that someone "stacked the deck" against D*. Face it, if the HR20 worked as it should, there wold still be a smattering of negative reviews/opinions on feedback sites, but the wouldn't be the majority view.

On the Amazon Etymotic reviews, a tiny percentage of people said the headphones stunk, and sent them back. But the vast majority of people, including me, gave the product 5 stars. If the HR20 worked reliably for me from the start, I would have done the same for it.

User reviews certainly can have extreme views, but on balance, they do reflect the overall user experience. Logic tells you that.

There is no way 175 Etymotic "plants" bothered to send in reviews to tip the scales to the positive. No, that product is a good one, and people will report the good just as well as the bad. It happens again and again. Check the Panasonic plasma reviews, or the Shure E2C reviews. On balance, both get 4 out of 5 stars, with the Shures have 250 user reviews. Why? Because both are darn good products.

If you check user reviews against products, I'd wager that a positive review will jibe with the product's professional reviews as well, in most cases.

Not always on CNET, because their reviews are also based on a single person's experience. If you look at the difference between CNET's reviews and user reviews, there is often a ratings gap.

Overall, there is validity to user reviews. And that's the case with the HR20 as well. Same with Circuit City's user feedback. The extreme opinions reflect the experience of the users, just as they do on this board.

Having said that, D*'s official response was nothing but pathetic PR spin. Just admit there is a problem for an unacceptable number of users, and solve it. That's all anyone who has reviewed the HR20 negatively asks, with the few exceptions of those who want their Tivos.

 

[tstarn]

You can take any product out there and find reviews on just how good or how bad it is. I have owned many products that I have had few issues with that people say it's garbage and doesn't work or I had this problem and they refuse to do anything. When you can read the next review and it says it's the best product I have ever seen. I have seen MANY people post and say this is a bad product and come to find out they don't own it.

As Donnie said some people like to add fuel to the fire and some of those people are here. I for one don't like reading posts where people do this and add nothing beneficial to the community. I have no problems with negative comments when people have problems, but there is a line and I have watched many cross that line lately.

Disagree on your first statement. Sure, you can find individual reviews on either side of the fence, but overall, products that work well and deliver on their promises rise to the top and often reflect the consensus of reviewers. That's why products like Panasonic plasmas and Sony's latest batch of LCOS sets get good word of mouth/reviews. And you will find negative reviews on both, but not the majority.

Fuel to the fire? Because people aren't happy with their HR20s they complain? That just sounds like paranoia. Hope I didn't cross the line. It's not meant to be uncivil, but I just don't agree that every product has good and bad reviews, so on balance they mean absolutely nothing.

 

[HaiChinGow]

You can take any product out there and find reviews on just how good or how bad it is. I have owned many products that I have had few issues with that people say it's garbage and doesn't work or I had this problem and they refuse to do anything. When you can read the next review and it says it's the best product I have ever seen. I have seen MANY people post and say this is a bad product and come to find out they don't own it.

As Donnie said some people like to add fuel to the fire and some of those people are here. I for one don't like reading posts where people do this and add nothing beneficial to the community. I have no problems with negative comments when people have problems, but there is a line and I have watched many cross that line lately.

You do realize that this forum itself is indicative of the overall problem. Soliciting Beta feedback through a non-official proxy shows that D* was not prepared to release a product that was not ready for market. What is frustrating for many people is the fact that they were not asked to participate in a Beta program, and then had to seek out somewhere to give feedback with the problems they were experiencing. I have particpated in many Beta programs and I conduct Beta programs as part of the release program for my products. In another thread, someone started a popular dicussion exclaiming that if they shipped software this buggy they would be fired. If I ran a Beta program this poorly, I would be fired.

People do have real issues with the HR20. I have owned many Consumer Electronics and I have never experienced the frustration of using them as I have with the HR20. It doesn't do what it was designed to do, reliably Record and Playback. Calls to to Customer Service add to the frustration. Again, D* wasn't prepared to handle the Beta issues through their normal CS channel. So, without any offical escalation and reponse mechanism in place, people are wandering into this forum to voice their concerns, seek resolution or validation of the problems they are seeing, and eventually venting their frustration outright or in back-handed comments.

You act is if you are surprised. Think it through from the average consumers point of view. Sure, there are people who will add fuel to fires just to see how high the flames will rise, but in most cases there are people who have reached a level of frustration with issues and have no official way to get resolution to those issues. So, dbstalk has set itself up as a an unofficial place to collect feedback and criticism for the HR20 Beta. Don't be surprised that many people view this dbstalk forum as yet another problem with the way that this release was handled. If there had been a proper method put in place, dbstalk wouldn't be part of the problem

Feel free to delete this post or remove my account if you feel I have crossed the line. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who feels this way and in time you can weed out the people who are critical of the way that dbstalk and D* handled the issue leaving only the people who give glowing accounts of how nice their units and experience have been.

-hai

 

[tstarn]

You do realize that this forum itself is indicative of the overall problem. Soliciting Beta feedback through a non-official proxy shows that D* was not prepared to release a product that was not ready for market. What is frustrating for many people is the fact that they were not asked to participate in a Beta program, and then had to seek out somewhere to give feedback with the problems they were experiencing. I have particpated in many Beta programs and I conduct Beta programs as part of the release program for my products. In another thread, someone started a popular dicussion exclaiming that if they shipped software this buggy they would be fired. If I ran a Beta program this poorly, I would be fired.

People do have real issues with the HR20. I have owned many Consumer Electronics and I have never experienced the frustration of using them as I have with the HR20. It doesn't do what it was designed to do, reliably Record and Playback. Calls to to Customer Service add to the frustration. Again, D* wasn't prepared to handle the Beta issues through their normal CS channel. So, without any offical escalation and reponse mechanism in place, people are wandering into this forum to voice their concerns, seek resolution or validation of the problems they are seeing, and eventually venting their frustration outright or in back-handed comments.

You act is if you are surprised. Think it through from the average consumers point of view. Sure, there are people who will add fuel to fires just to see how high the flames will rise, but in most cases there are people who have reached a level of frustration with issues and have no official way to get resolution to those issues. So, dbstalk has set itself up as a an unofficial place to collect feedback and criticism for the HR20 Beta. Don't be surprised that many people view this dbstalk forum as yet another problem with the way that this release was handled. If there had been a proper method put in place, dbstalk wouldn't be part of the problem

Feel free to delete this post or remove my account if you feel I have crossed the line. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who feels this way and in time you can weed out the people who are critical of the way that dbstalk and D* handled the issue leaving only the people who give glowing accounts of how nice their units and experience have been.

-hai

Eloquent, on the money statement. Hai, you have spoken for many people here, but none of us had the right words. And I agree that some of the hostility flung around at this site is truly a reflection/result of the way D* has handled this entire launch. Now, their self-serving disinformation (the official response to CNET) just added, pardon the expression, even more fuel to the fire.

 

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

the "outside agitator" theory really is absurd.

no more absurd than 99.9% of your posts on this forum.

 

[matto]

And, those who have "crossed", will soon speak. :lol:

But the mods apparently can troll as much as they like.

 

[matto]

no more absurd than 99.9% of your posts on this forum.

Gosh "Alvin", I've never seen you post anything but a troll, or an assertion that your perfect HR20 (handed to you by god himself) has never given you a single problem.

Thanks for the morning dose of irony.

 

[matto]

move my account if you feel I have crossed the line. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person who feels this way and in time you can weed out the people who are critical of the way that dbstalk and D* handled the issue leaving only the people who give glowing accounts of how nice their units and experience have been.

hai for president!!!

 

[tstarn]

Gosh "Alvin", I've never seen you post anything but a troll, or an assertion that your perfect HR20 (handed to you by god himself) has never given you a single problem.

Thanks for the morning dose of irony.

Typical personal attack, devoid of any contribution to the debate in question. More of the same, in other words.