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AllStar
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Clint Lamor said:
I find it quite funny that since I have stated an opinion on something all of the sudden dbstalk as a whole is deleting accounts from anyone who doesn't say great things about every product we have support for. If that where the fact MANY people would not still be here most likely including myself and every other MOD. Before you spout off on things you seem to have little idea on how they work I suggest you do some checking.

I have had disagreements with people on products, users here as a matter of fact but for the most part I respect their opinion. I know what frustration is I have been dealing with BETA as you seem to deem it electronics for many years in my personal and professional life. It's not fun when something you pay for doesn't work like you think it should. I get very frustrated with all of my DVR's at times, my R15 my Tivo's all of them.
You sir, are quite funny. I have done some checking and you should not make judgement calls in areas that you have not researched more carefully. If you weren't a MOD, I would consider putting you on my ignore list. Earl has talked about deleting users, and/or "giving them a vacation". Other mods, (look back a few posts) have also mentioned censoring or deleting due to views that were not consistent with dbstalk.

here is a quick litmus test for you, how would you feel if you were a D* investor? Would you still feel that the situation was handled correctly by using this proxy (dbstalk) as a method to manage an important release?
 

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Clint Lamor said:
Last I check motherboars where consumer electronics. If you are meaning things like the DVR, well I have read many good and bad reviews for SlingBox, some say it doesn't do what it's supposed to some love it. Heck much like many people here with the HR20 I waited a while before I picked up my slingbox. When I first got it I loved it, then an upgrade happened and I had nothing but problems, then yet another upgrade for it and most of the new problems went away and other things got even better.

My XBox360, has had multiple updates and I have read many horrible reviews on it some by people who are Sony fans and hate anything but Sony Consoles. My X360 has had some issues and those have been addresses. Heck I read the other day that MS released an update for the 360 that caused many of them to become bricks.

Like I said I feel your pain I know some glowing reviews and some bad reviews are out there for almost all products. I read plenty of them both bad and good before I bought my new cellphone but decided to take the chance anyway. I suffer for taking that chance sometimes and other times it's great.
As for motherboards, I guess I consider them a specialty computer product, not a general consumer product. At least not one purchased directly. Call me uninformed.
 

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HaiChinGow said:
You sir, are quite funny. I have done some checking and you should not make judgement calls in areas that you have not researched more carefully. If you weren't a MOD, I would consider putting you on my ignore list. Earl has talked about deleting users, and/or "giving them a vacation". Other mods, (look back a few posts) have also mentioned censoring or deleting due to views that were not consistent with dbstalk.

here is a quick litmus test for you, how would you feel if you were a D* investor? Would you still feel that the situation was handled correctly by using this proxy (dbstalk) as a method to manage an important release?
1) Yes... I spoke of putting users on "vacation"... for violation of our forum rules... specifically... attacks on users. Not once has it been related to some ones opinion or comments.

2) We don't delete users... ban them yes, for multiple violoations of the forums rules... (or violating certain ones such as spamming)... we have never banned someone because of their "views", provided they express those views within the rules of the forum.

3) We have deleted threads, that have absolutlely nothing to do with the threads, and don't add any merit to the discussion... That is part of the job of moderating the forum. We don't "censor" people opinions or views...

4) There is an official DirecTV forum... which DirecTV does monitor. Just because they have opted to also look at other forums out there...... why is that wrong? Do you only read one forum to get the information on products?

Granted we are lucky enough here to post the technically un-official release notes for the units... So yes.. DBSTalk is viewed as a very significant point for the feed back on the systems.. (not just the HR20... but most of their product line)

If we wanted "that" kind of forum... don't you think about 1/3 of the posts that have occured this past week.... would still be here?

We have let an enourmous amount slide over the last couple weeks....
And frankly... it is going to end.... And if that results in having to BAN users (on any side of the arguments) who violate the rules of the forums. Well then... That is what it is going to be. And frankly.. .bottom line.

If you don't like, instead of putting us on your ignore list.... delete www.dbstalk.com from your favorite list.
 

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tstarn said:
As for motherboards, I guess I consider them a specialty computer product, not a general consumer product. At least not one purchased directly. Call me uninformed.
I agree. Motherboards are not a closed system like a DVR. A DVR is a system where all components software and hardware are a known and controlled quantity.
 

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tstarn said:
I just wanted to know which good products were rated 50-50 bad vs. good. To me, if a product is in the 50-50 zone, on balance, it's not a good product. Call me naive.
I think when I first started looking for my SlingBox it was in that zone, since then I think the reviews have gotten better as problems have been addressed.
 

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tstarn said:
As for motherboards, I guess I consider them a specialty computer product, not a general consumer product. At least not one purchased directly. Call me uninformed.
You can walk into almost any major electonics store now and pick them up. We are just splitting hairs though.
 

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HaiChinGow said:
You sir, are quite funny. I have done some checking and you should not make judgement calls in areas that you have not researched more carefully. If you weren't a MOD, I would consider putting you on my ignore list. Earl has talked about deleting users, and/or "giving them a vacation". Other mods, (look back a few posts) have also mentioned censoring or deleting due to views that were not consistent with dbstalk.

here is a quick litmus test for you, how would you feel if you were a D* investor? Would you still feel that the situation was handled correctly by using this proxy (dbstalk) as a method to manage an important release?
YOu are MORE then welcome to put me on ignore. I am not going just by this thread as it has gotten WAY out of hand. I am going by dealing with many users on many subjects here. There are people who have all not agreed with what the mod's think or say and have voiced those opinions and they are all still here.
 

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matto said:
I agree. Motherboards are not a closed system like a DVR. A DVR is a system where all components software and hardware are a known and controlled quantity.
Sort of like the PC that you buy from Dell? Which many people have problems with? Much like a normal PC these DVR's are PC's and have issues just like them. Yes I do agree some of these issues should not have escaped initial testing. In the end as long as they get fixed that what matters.
 

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Clint Lamor said:
You can walk into almost any major electonics store now and pick them up. We are just splitting hairs though.
I must've missed where Circuit City and Best Buy keep them.

If you're referring to Fry's and MicroCenter, they are enthusiast stores as much as mainstream consumer electronics stores. Unless you consider chip carriers and thermistors "mainstream" things any average consumer would buy.

This isn't hair-splitting. You're discussing a product (motherboards) that most consumers never directly deal with. The vast majority of computers purchased are pre-built. The self-built computer market is still considered, even by the vendors, to be an enthusiast/hobbyist market.
 

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Clint Lamor said:
You can walk into almost any major electonics store now and pick them up. We are just splitting hairs though.
Splitting hairs, yes. But a motherboard is not your typical consumer electronics purchase was my only point. You used it as a comparable product to the HR20, at least in terms of user reviews. I guess I didn't believe it was an apples to apples comparison. But no big deal either way.
 

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mcl said:
I must've missed where Circuit City and Best Buy keep them.
About a year or so ago, Best Buy "toyed" with carrying components (cases, motherboards, processors, power supplies) I think part of that experiment has ended though.
 

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HaiChinGow said:
You sir, are quite funny. I have done some checking and you should not make judgement calls in areas that you have not researched more carefully. If you weren't a MOD, I would consider putting you on my ignore list. Earl has talked about deleting users, and/or "giving them a vacation". Other mods, (look back a few posts) have also mentioned censoring or deleting due to views that were not consistent with dbstalk.

here is a quick litmus test for you, how would you feel if you were a D* investor? Would you still feel that the situation was handled correctly by using this proxy (dbstalk) as a method to manage an important release?
I hope you were not referring to me... Because that was not what I said. I suggest if you feel my comment indicated such, do a search on my name and Bash and you will understand my view though you might not agree with it and thats cool. But your take on my comment is not accurate at all. Simple as that. Infact, it is not accurate with any of the moderators here from my experience. Big difference between how something is said and removing posts because of a certain view. They are mutual exclusive to me.
 

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Clint Lamor said:
Sort of like the PC that you buy from Dell? Which many people have problems with? Much like a normal PC these DVR's are PC's and have issues just like them.
No, you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Computers are general-purpose, "white box" devices with a user-customizeable (and user-screw-uppable) OS, with applications installed by the user.

A DVR is a dedicated, single-purpose "black box" device with no user-customizeable OS, and without end-user-installable applications.

The two are nothing alike, and since I don't believe you're this stupid, I can only assume you're intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

And as far as "what matters", charging your top-tier customer base $300 for becoming unwitting beta-testers and forcing them to remain so for an indeterminate period of time while leaving them without a viable DVR solution is VERY MUCH what matters. not that it's "fixed eventually".

if they want us to beta test this product, and expect us to keep it in its current state, they can darn well refund the money we spent to have the dubious privilege.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
1) Yes... I spoke of putting users on "vacation"... for violation of our forum rules... specifically... attacks on users. Not once has it been related to some ones opinion or comments.

2) We don't delete users... ban them yes, for multiple violoations of the forums rules... (or violating certain ones such as spamming)... we have never banned someone because of their "views", provided they express those views within the rules of the forum.

3) We have deleted threads, that have absolutlely nothing to do with the threads, and don't add any merit to the discussion... That is part of the job of moderating the forum. We don't "censor" people opinions or views...

4) There is an official DirecTV forum... which DirecTV does monitor. Just because they have opted to also look at other forums out there...... why is that wrong? Do you only read one forum to get the information on products?

Granted we are lucky enough here to post the technically un-official release notes for the units... So yes.. DBSTalk is viewed as a very significant point for the feed back on the systems.. (not just the HR20... but most of their product line)

If we wanted "that" kind of forum... don't you think about 1/3 of the posts that have occured this past week.... would still be here?

We have let an enourmous amount slide over the last couple weeks....
And frankly... it is going to end.... And if that results in having to BAN users (on any side of the arguments) who violate the rules of the forums. Well then... That is what it is going to be. And frankly.. .bottom line.

If you don't like, instead of putting us on your ignore list.... delete www.dbstalk.com from your favorite list.
As a Mod or better yet, if i was not in that capacity, i would still agree with Earl's comments. This is getting completely ridiculous and WILL stop. Call it "censorship" if you must, but those members who have contributed to widespread nonsense of name calling, trolling and complete off-topic crap.........you know who you are. Play by the rules or find another home. We will get this forum back to its intended purpose, with or without those who decide to leave or are forced to do so.

It's a shame that i cannot say it as eloquent as Earl has.
 

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Ron Barry said:
I hope you were not referring to me... Because that was not what I said. I suggest if you feel my comment indicated such, do a search on my name and Bash and you will understand my view though you might not agree with it and that cool. But your take on my comment is not accurate at all. Simple as that. Infact, it is not accurate with any of the moderators here from my experience. Big difference between how something is said and removing posts because of a certain view. They are mutual exclusive to me.
Are you outright denying these things were said? Because you're quite wrong.
 

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Clint Lamor said:
Sort of like the PC that you buy from Dell? Which many people have problems with? Much like a normal PC these DVR's are PC's and have issues just like them. Yes I do agree some of these issues should not have escaped initial testing. In the end as long as they get fixed that what matters.
Clint, the important distinction here is that the user is free to install software and configure the Dell however they want. It is a general purpose computer, not a consumer electronic appliance. This isn't an issue of splitting hairs, it is comparing apples to oranges.

For what its worth, I did take your comparisons to the 622 to heart, and I truly do hope that a year from now, we can look back on this debacle with relief, as the 622 users seem to be able to.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
About a year or so ago, Best Buy "toyed" with carrying components (cases, motherboards, processors, power supplies) I think part of that experiment has ended though.
Wonder why. Perhaps because motherboards aren't the general consumer goods your fellow moderator is trying to argue they are.
 

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mcl said:
I must've missed where Circuit City and Best Buy keep them.

If you're referring to Fry's and MicroCenter, they are enthusiast stores as much as mainstream consumer electronics stores. Unless you consider chip carriers and thermistors "mainstream" things any average consumer would buy.

This isn't hair-splitting. You're discussing a product (motherboards) that most consumers never directly deal with. The vast majority of computers purchased are pre-built. The self-built computer market is still considered, even by the vendors, to be an enthusiast/hobbyist market.
Every BB and CC in my area have them, I do not have a Fry's or a Microcenter here. They are in the PC departments.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
About a year or so ago, Best Buy "toyed" with carrying components (cases, motherboards, processors, power supplies) I think part of that experiment has ended though.
They still have them here. My apologies if they don't in other areas I just assumed that since I see them here and back in Mi where i'm originally from that it was system wide. My mistake if this isn't true.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Clint Lamor said:
Sort of like the PC that you buy from Dell? Which many people have problems with? Much like a normal PC these DVR's are PC's and have issues just like them. Yes I do agree some of these issues should not have escaped initial testing. In the end as long as they get fixed that what matters.
From an expectation stand point they are not at all like PCs. PC's are designed to be general purpose compute devices, the end user can change all kinds of thing on them and they can load a variety of different software on them, so the idea that there might be stability issues on any one persons PC is not to be unexpected. The HR20 is a specific purpose devices, it is a closed system that only D* can specify and make modifications to, because of that, it is expected to be very stable and reliably execute the job it was purchased to perform. There are 2 very different sets of expectations for a general purpose computer and a specific purpose device.

Technical the HR20 is just a computer, it contains a CPU, ram, hard disk, roms, and interface cards, but what makes it so different is since D* controls everything and the consumer controls only what D* enables to be controlled, the expectation is that the unit should be functionally reliable. Sure there might be units with failed or marginal hardware components, that is to be expected but it should be the corner cases. Just because the hardware in the HR20 is PC like, doesn't mean that the expectations are the same as a general purpose PC. The funny thing is I find my PC which is running a wild combination of software, multiple monitors, virtual machine software, other crazy atypical stuff is very stable compared the HR20. My HTPC has not crashed in over a year, and I also use it as a file server for my home and it has been recording HD for years.
 
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