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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'd like to hear what people think about the possibility the market (or customer pressure) could force D* to reconsider using TIVO, or at least offering a TIVO alternative.

What do you all think? What if D* shed half a million subscribers or 2 million because their new box is so inferior to TIVO?

Could it happen? Should it? Does D* care?

EDIT:

Regardless of the direction the conversation goes in this thread, I'd love to read as many opinions on the primary question(s) posed here in the first post.
 

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Ive never had TiVo so I guess I don't know what I'm missing but I did have Dish DVR 921 I believe and they are similar, i think the main thing is as long as it works people will be happy. the only thing i really miss from the Dish DVR which I think D* will implement eventually in some shape or form is the swap (dual buffers) button.
 

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jaywdetroit said:
Could it happen? Should it? Does D* care?
Maybe. Yes. No.
 

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The DTV boxes are better than the DTivo's.

I do not think after spending all the money to create these boxes that they would spend more to start working with Tivo again and spend even more money.

DTV's boxes are as good or better than Tivo, they are just working out the kinks.

Remember people these things are NEW. When they were delaying the launch of the product to reduce the amount of bugs people were complaining that it was not out yet.

Now that it is out people are complaining that it is out and has some bugs.

The one thing I have noticed in here is most of you guys do not have patience, whether it is when it was coming out, when a new update is coming out, when OTA will be enabled.

You cry for the world and when you get it you complain about it and will not be patient enough for things to workout.
 

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Is it possible? Sure... but it will have to take a LOT Of pressure.

And given the number of DTV+ receivers that have gone out (R15 and HR20)... I can't see that pressure comming.

None of know what happen in the board rooms between DirecTV and TiVo (everything out there is speculation)... so to know what caused the rift... don't know.

Honestly... I just don't see it ever happening, unless DirecTV (or whom ever their parent company is at the time), buys TiVo
 

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IMO TiVo was doomed with D* when people started hacking for fake Lifetime Service, all locals, HMO, etc. D* took note and said, "We don't need this sh*t!". A PROM chip was put in the S 2.5 units (R-10) to try to stop the hacking, TiVo even added it to their own units, but by then it was too late. You don't usually get a 2nd chance when you make units/software that are vulnerable to hacks. D* had seen enough of that by that time.

You don't see those hacks with the in-house units and that's how D* likes it. If any other multichannel provider had seen what D* saw being done with the D-TiVos, you can bet they would have done exactly the same thing. So, to answer the question, I think D* would place a higher premium on security over any small market TiVo might net them.
 

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jaywdetroit said:
I'd like to hear what people think about the possibility the market (or customer pressure) could force D* to reconsider using TIVO, or at least offering a TIVO alternative.

What do you all think? What if D* shed half a million subscribers or 2 million because their new box is so inferior to TIVO?

Could it happen? Should it? Does D* care?
I may be in the minority, but I like this dvr (HR-20) as much or better than the tivo.
 

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Blitz68 said:
The DTV boxes are better than the DTivo's.

I do not think after spending all the money to create these boxes that they would spend more to start working with Tivo again and spend even more money.

DTV's boxes are as good or better than Tivo, they are just working out the kinks.

Remember people these things are NEW. When they were delaying the launch of the product to reduce the amount of bugs people were complaining that it was not out yet.

Now that it is out people are complaining that it is out and has some bugs.

The one thing I have noticed in here is most of you guys do not have patience, whether it is when it was coming out, when a new update is coming out, when OTA will be enabled.

You cry for the world and when you get it you complain about it and will not be patient enough for things to workout.
What's wrong with this picture? You are upset because other people don't share your opinion? Both sides of this argument are very subjective. I sympathize with the people who are having problems with the HR20 as I fall into that category. I don't like seeing strong personal views from either side of the argument. Attacks from those who call the people with working units liars. Those who are satisfied with the HR20 calling people who are having issues with the unit whiners and complainers. Some of us weren't waiting around for the HR20 to release. I was enticed by D* as part of a movers connection back in Septembr. I hadn't heard of it before that. I realize it is a new release and that there might be problems. I wasn't nformed that I would be a beta tester for a unit that didn't have have basic functionality as its core value propostion.

Subjective opinions don't add value to these threads.

On the topic of Tivo vs. HR20, this would be a non-issue if the HR20 met the expectations of consumers. These expectations fall into 2 categories, features and functionality. First and foremost, the HR20 needs to function the same as a Tivo. My expectation is that I should be able to consistently and reliably record and playback. It is that simple. On the features side, my expectation is that I shouldn't have to give up anything that was considered a standard on a device that preceded it. D* touts the HR20 as their flagship unit. I own several flagship consumer electronics and those devices are considered top-shelf (flagship) because they don't compromise on the feature set. This means building on a feature set of what came before it, not throwing away features that have become standards. For that reason, the statement that the HR20 is better than Tivo is not true. It is also true that the HR20 is not a POS, it just doesn't meet the expectations of those who expect a flagship product to perform as such.

-hai
 

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The fact that the HR-20 is not a Tivo is due to just one fact.....Because it is not a TiVo, DIRECTV does not have to share revenue with someone else. Over time I believe that you will see the HR20 become the J6P DVR. This is all about being able to do the one thing that DIRECTV wants to most ….get down are go after the cable companies. That’s what the FTM effort is about and why we don’t see any new TiVo’s. You can’t “give away” the DVR if you have to pay someone else a fee to supply and support the software. The ironic thing is that while DIRECTV is moving away from TiVo, the cable companies are adopting their software.

So NO, I don't think we can change their minds.....
 

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I moved this thread... as this "discussion" needs to be about the overall nature of the DVR technology and path taken.

There is more to it, then just the HR10-250 vs the HR20; There is also the R15, ect...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
HaiChinGow said:
What's wrong with this picture? You are upset because other people don't share your opinion? Both sides of this argument are very subjective. I sympathize with the people who are having problems with the HR20 as I fall into that category. I don't like seeing strong personal views from either side of the argument. Attacks from those who call the people with working units liars. Those who are satisfied with the HR20 calling people who are having issues with the unit whiners and complainers. Some of us weren't waiting around for the HR20 to release. I was enticed by D* as part of a movers connection back in Septembr. I hadn't heard of it before that. I realize it is a new release and that there might be problems. I wasn't nformed that I would be a beta tester for a unit that didn't have have basic functionality as its core value propostion.

Subjective opinions don't add value to these threads.

On the topic of Tivo vs. HR20, this would be a non-issue if the HR20 met the expectations of consumers. These expectations fall into 2 categories, features and functionality. First and foremost, the HR20 needs to function the same as a Tivo. My expectation is that I should be able to consistently and reliably record and playback. It is that simple. On the features side, my expectation is that I shouldn't have to give up anything that was considered a standard on a device that preceded it. D* touts the HR20 as their flagship unit. I own several flagship consumer electronics and those devices are considered top-shelf (flagship) because they don't compromise on the feature set. This means building on a feature set of what came before it, not throwing away features that have become standards. For that reason, the statement that the HR20 is better than Tivo is not true. It is also true that the HR20 is not a POS, it just doesn't meet the expectations of those who expect a flagship product to perform as such.

-hai
I think this is the most common-sense evaluation I have seen on this topic.

I have had the HR20 for just over a month now and I find that its not so much the functionality (though I've had some frustrating problems) it's the FEATURES that I miss. When I go back to watch BSG on my old DTIVO and forward through the entire commercial break with 4 button presses inside of 5 seconds, I find myself not wanting to go back and watch on my brand new LCD. I find myself frustrated and annoyed while I am watching the HR20 and relieved when I watch my TIVO. These are RAW emotions and I think it is important to notice them. D* would be wise to pay attention because I got the best deal one can get on an HR20 and went into this whole thing with an open mind and with very positive feelings toward D*. As the month has gone by, those feelings have started to erode. My tv watching experience is not nearly as enjoyable and the fact that I notice it is what drives me crazy.

All of this because of the feature set. At first I was holding out hope that D* would address some of the major missing features - (Like the top 4 or 5 in the survey) but I'm starting to think its not going to happen. It looks obvious that D* is catering more to advertisers than to their paying customers. Like they designed the box to be more difficult to watch without caving in and watching commercials - or at least seeing what commercials are being skipped.

I'm to the point where I am trying to decide if HD is even worth it. I think I'm getting close to plugging my old Hughes back in and waiting for the Series 3 to become affordable.

It would be different if D* would just come out and address this stuff and tell us. Why won't they? I guess I'm looking for someone to convince me that this box is going to be able to stand up to TIVOs features. (That means I don't have to see so much as a corporate logo during commercial breaks.)
 

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Honestly we'll see in about a year after the HR20 has been established and how stable it is. I think it's relatively solid for the majority now but certainly has many problems and eyesores still. If they can get those worked out in the next couple months and have a good Christmas then Tivo will be a non-factor.

One has to remember that most D* HD subs *don't* have an HR10 and the vast majority don't have an SD DirecTivo either. Just a couple million have a Tivo based unit. Even if they lost a couple hundred thousand it's a drop in the bucket.

Plus, where are those that just can't give up a Tivo going to go?
Cable with an $800 series 3? Probably not.
Cable with cable DVR that's not Tivo? Possibly. (Yes there are a couple cable deals with Tivo out there but nothing with a real rollout).
Standalone Tivo with cable? Possible.
Dish with their DVR that's not Tivo? Possibly

In any of these cases there are downsides if you go stand alone such as cost or no dual tuners, etc.

Basically the person that must have Tivo doesn't have a whole lot of options anymore, thus why Tivo is in trouble.

So yes, I think DirecTV may lose some subs even if the HR20 turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread and that's to be expected with any technology switch.
If the HR20 turns out to be a disaster 6-8 months from now once it's in mass rollout then DirecTV will lose subs despite Tivo or not.
 

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All I know is I'm not getting an HR20 until I absolutely have to! Too many bugs, plus I get my locals OTA anyway, so who cares.

Brand new technology is just too shaky in the beginning. I don't have to run out and buy something just because it's there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
bonscott87 said:
Plus, where are those that just can't give up a Tivo going to go?
Cable with an $800 series 3? Probably not.
Cable with cable DVR that's not Tivo? Possibly. (Yes there are a couple cable deals with Tivo out there but nothing with a real rollout).
Standalone Tivo with cable? Possible.
Dish with their DVR that's not Tivo? Possibly

.
This is why my view of D* has eroded over the past month. It seems like the TIVO OS is being bullied out of the market on purpose in order to diminish customer expectations of DVR. I hope I am wrong about this and that the HR20 will eventually have the same features as TIVO.

Perhaps the market will solve the problem if TIVO sinks. In the meantime, it sure would be nice if someone from D* stepped up and stated exactly what D* intends to do about adding some of these features.
 

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jaywdetroit said:
I think this is the most common-sense evaluation I have seen on this topic.

I have had the HR20 for just over a month now and I find that its not so much the functionality (though I've had some frustrating problems) it's the FEATURES that I miss. When I go back to watch BSG on my old DTIVO and forward through the entire commercial break with 4 button presses inside of 5 seconds, I find myself not wanting to go back and watch on my brand new LCD. I find myself frustrated and annoyed while I am watching the HR20 and relieved when I watch my TIVO. These are RAW emotions and I think it is important to notice them. D* would be wise to pay attention because I got the best deal one can get on an HR20 and went into this whole thing with an open mind and with very positive feelings toward D*. As the month has gone by, those feelings have started to erode. My tv watching experience is not nearly as enjoyable and the fact that I notice it is what drives me crazy.

All of this because of the feature set. At first I was holding out hope that D* would address some of the major missing features - (Like the top 4 or 5 in the survey) but I'm starting to think its not going to happen. It looks obvious that D* is catering more to advertisers than to their paying customers. Like they designed the box to be more difficult to watch without caving in and watching commercials - or at least seeing what commercials are being skipped.

I'm to the point where I am trying to decide if HD is even worth it. I think I'm getting close to plugging my old Hughes back in and waiting for the Series 3 to become affordable.

It would be different if D* would just come out and address this stuff and tell us. Why won't they? I guess I'm looking for someone to convince me that this box is going to be able to stand up to TIVOs features. (That means I don't have to see so much as a corporate logo during commercial breaks.)
Thanks for laying out my exact issues with this whole HR20 situation. I don't get ST, so that's not an issue. And we already have two R10s cranking away, recording reliably should the HR20 fail (or record with sound/video dropouts, right now our only problem). When Comcast delivers its Tivo interface, that may be a viable option, depending on the overall DVR's capabilities, as much as I hate to go back to cable.

I really only care about two things: Most of all, reliabilty, which either will be solved by D* or not, and dual buffers, which to me are what make a DVR a truly great TV viewing experience. For two weeks now, I have had no reliabilty issues with the HR20 (using component and removing the B-Band Converters, and I am not even sure those changes are the reason why). I also have been living without the dual buffers, but it really is a pain not to have them.

Within the next year or two, there will be some emerging options (cable with Tivo, either directly or via a lower-priced S3), or FIOS, which will be coming to my city/neighborhood realtively soon. I look forward to evaluating the options when they are viable. Certainly, D* isn't winning the battle for the hearts and minds (and from their POV, money) of a specific sub group (those whose HR20s are not working properly) at this point.
 

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bonscott87 said:
Honestly we'll see in about a year after the HR20 has been established and how stable it is.
If the HR20 is stable in a year that would be great. For the R15's been out for a year and still is not a reliable DVR. So far DTV's track record isn't too good.
 

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HaiChinGow said:
What's wrong with this picture? You are upset because other people don't share your opinion? Both sides of this argument are very subjective. I sympathize with the people who are having problems with the HR20 as I fall into that category. I don't like seeing strong personal views from either side of the argument. Attacks from those who call the people with working units liars. Those who are satisfied with the HR20 calling people who are having issues with the unit whiners and complainers. Some of us weren't waiting around for the HR20 to release. I was enticed by D* as part of a movers connection back in Septembr. I hadn't heard of it before that. I realize it is a new release and that there might be problems. I wasn't nformed that I would be a beta tester for a unit that didn't have have basic functionality as its core value propostion.

Subjective opinions don't add value to these threads.

On the topic of Tivo vs. HR20, this would be a non-issue if the HR20 met the expectations of consumers. These expectations fall into 2 categories, features and functionality. First and foremost, the HR20 needs to function the same as a Tivo. My expectation is that I should be able to consistently and reliably record and playback. It is that simple. On the features side, my expectation is that I shouldn't have to give up anything that was considered a standard on a device that preceded it. D* touts the HR20 as their flagship unit. I own several flagship consumer electronics and those devices are considered top-shelf (flagship) because they don't compromise on the feature set. This means building on a feature set of what came before it, not throwing away features that have become standards. For that reason, the statement that the HR20 is better than Tivo is not true. It is also true that the HR20 is not a POS, it just doesn't meet the expectations of those who expect a flagship product to perform as such.

-hai
Perfectly stated (your second graph). And enough already with the "tastes great" v. "less filling" tennis match. By now, everyone is sick of it (except apparently those who persist in making those posts).
 

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Wolffpack said:
If the HR20 is stable in a year that would be great. For the R15's been out for a year and still is not a reliable DVR. So far DTV's track record isn't too good.
Oh I totally agree. While I haven't had too many major issues with the HR20 I know it could strike at any time. If it does and it remains unstable then I'll be looking at options as well. Problem is for me my options are few:

1) FIOS - pipe dream. Maybe by 2020
2) Cable - Charter sucks
3) Dish - would be the only real option

In any case Sunday Ticket has it's claws in deep. But if the price of that keeps going up those claws won't be so deep, especially with an unstable DVR.

I personally evaluate my multi-channel provider about every 2 years. I just recently did that so my 2 year commitment from the HR20 now runs right with that. I hope that everyone would do this evaluation and not be too blind to whomever they are with.
 
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