D* needs to cache the guide data

2187 Views 33 Replies 19 Participants Last post by taylorhively, Feb 19, 2007

jkc120

Discussion Starter · Nov 6, 2006

Why? Because the HR20 locks up. Mine in particular, east once a day.

It wouldn't quite as annoying if:

a) it booted up in a minute instead of nearly 10
b) the guide data was persistent

C'mon D*, you know this thing locks up like an engine with no oil, so how about you start caching the guide data since you can't seem to fix the lockups.

I'll be calling customer retention again as soon as it locks up once after the update (whenever that may be). Call me a pessimist, but I'm not hopeful the new software will fix the lockups.

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1 - 20 of 34 Posts

litzdog911

· #2 · Nov 6, 2006

I agree that it would be nice for the HR20 to cache its Guide Data so it could reboot a bit quicker.

Just J

· #3 · Nov 6, 2006

litzdog911 said:
I agree that it would be nice for the HR20 to cache its Guide Data so it could reboot a bit quicker.

Another vote for this change.

Earl Bonovich

· #4 · Nov 6, 2006

But what is the problem with it not caching the guide data?

The 6 hours are loaded in the last minute or so of the boot cycle.
In the next hour you get the rest of the day... and in 24 hours you get the entire 24 hours.

So other then not being able to scheduled recordings the next 2 weeks after a reboot... what are you missing?

joejhawk

· #5 · Nov 6, 2006

Earl Bonovich said:
But what is the problem with it not caching the guide data?

The 6 hours are loaded in the last minute or so of the boot cycle.
In the next hour you get the rest of the day... and in 24 hours you get the entire 24 hours.

So other then not being able to scheduled recordings the next 2 weeks after a reboot... what are you missing?

I have found that my system locks up the most when I am doing things with the guide such as searching for a program to record. So if I think of something that I want to record, I open the guide, search, system freezes, I reboot, then I have to wait until tommorow to repeat the process (IF I remember that I wanted to record something.)

It is not a huge deal, but it contributes greatly to the dissatisfaction with the unit.

mrshermanoaks

· #6 · Nov 6, 2006

The point is: The device should not be locking up so often that the non-caching of data should be a problem.

In other words, I'd rather have them fixing the problems that cause it to lock up than writing new code to cache the data.

RAD

· #7 · Nov 6, 2006

Earl Bonovich said:
But what is the problem with it not caching the guide data?

The 6 hours are loaded in the last minute or so of the boot cycle.
In the next hour you get the rest of the day... and in 24 hours you get the entire 24 hours.

So other then not being able to scheduled recordings the next 2 weeks after a reboot... what are you missing?

Here's an example why.

Yesterday we decided to go out for the rest of the day at the last moment. There was something I wanted to record then in the evening so I went to the trusty HR20 to set up the record but the box was locked up so it was time for a reboot. Once the box came back up the guide hadn't loaded far enough in the future for the program to show up that evening so I couldn't record it on that box, had to use my other box.

Now if the HR20 didn't require as many reboots as it currently does this wouldn't be an issue but in it's current state, and who knows for how long it will be like this, having the guide cached is something that is needed.

litzdog911

· #8 · Nov 6, 2006

Obviously it wouldn't be an issue if the HR20 didn't require frequent reboots. Hopefully the next software release will be most stable.

Doug Brott

· #9 · Nov 6, 2006

joejhawk said:
I have found that my system locks up the most when I am doing things with the guide such as searching for a program to record. So if I think of something that I want to record, I open the guide, search, system freezes, I reboot, then I have to wait until tommorow to repeat the process (IF I remember that I wanted to record something.)

It is not a huge deal, but it contributes greatly to the dissatisfaction with the unit.

The HR20 Wish List Survey currently ranks this item 16th out of 69 items. Earl's explanation is a perfect reason for why it is not needed, but joejhawk's statement is exactly the reason people want it.

Once the Lockups stop or become far-between, then caching the guide data will truly become unnecessary.

cuibap

· #10 · Nov 6, 2006

jkc120 said:
Why? Because the HR20 locks up. Mine in particular, east once a day.

It wouldn't quite as annoying if:

a) it booted up in a minute instead of nearly 10
b) the guide data was persistent

C'mon D*, you know this thing locks up like an engine with no oil, so how about you start caching the guide data since you can't seem to fix the lockups.

I'll be calling customer retention again as soon as it locks up once after the update (whenever that may be). Call me a pessimist, but I'm not hopeful the new software will fix the lockups.

This is where the entire software industry has problem with. These bad ideas should be ignored in the first place. Instead of finding the root cause and fix it, these ideas promote the bandage kind of fix and eventually it is impossible to support...

jkc120

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 6, 2006

cuibap said:
This is where the entire software industry has problem with. These bad ideas should be ignored in the first place. Instead of finding the root cause and fix it, these ideas promote the bandage kind of fix and eventually it is impossible to support...

Excuse me, but they AREN'T fixing the lockups, so we have to beg for workarounds. That's the entire point of my post. Of course I'd rather have them fix the lockups, but they've not done so. Mine has locked up with every software version it's had since day 1. So frankly, I'm not hopeful of it being fixed anytime soon.

If they can't fix the root cause of the lockups, then they SHOULD provide some appeasement to their customers, because frankly it's beyond annoying to have it lock up in the middle of recording a show and miss 10 minutes of it because the thing takes so long to reboot.

And as others have explained, you can't search for things to record until the next day, which is silly.

If I were confident in their ability to fix the lockups, I wouldn't be asking for such a workaround. And I do software for a living, and providing workarounds for problems is a common thing, while long-term fixes are researched. I would love to see the faces of my customers if I told them they had to wait 2 weeks for a permanent fix to a problem, when I could implement a workaround in a day.

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Andrew_J_M

· #12 · Nov 6, 2006

I've only had to reboot manually once, which was to get DD working several releases ago. I noticed then that guide didn't seem to update so that the first few hours were completely full then adding on in a linear fashion. So a couple of hours after the reboot I went in the guide to see what was coming on BBC America and several of the time slots were empty.

It must have rebooted itself a couple times when installing the updates but I wasn't looking at the guide then though I did notice that the To Do list was repopulating. Maybe that should be cached too.

cuibap

· #13 · Nov 6, 2006

jkc120 said:
Excuse me, but they AREN'T fixing the lockups, so we have to beg for workarounds. That's the entire point of my post. Of course I'd rather have them fix the lockups, but they've not done so. Mine has locked up with every software version it's had since day 1. So frankly, I'm not hopeful of it being fixed anytime soon.

If they can't fix the root cause of the lockups, then they SHOULD provide some appeasement to their customers, because frankly it's beyond annoying to have it lock up in the middle of recording a show and miss 10 minutes of it because the thing takes so long to reboot.

And as others have explained, you can't search for things to record until the next day, which is silly.

If I were confident in their ability to fix the lockups, I wouldn't be asking for such a workaround. And I do software for a living, and providing workarounds for problems is a common thing, while long-term fixes are researched. I would love to see the faces of my customers if I told them they had to wait 2 weeks for a permanent fix to a problem, when I could implement a workaround in a day.

My point is DON'T give them work around solution since it's easier to make it work the WRONG way. Keep asking and posting about your lock ups, I believe they will fix it. Sometimes, it's not very high on their priority list but will eventually fix it. Just DON'T give them WRONG ideas...

btmoore

· #14 · Nov 6, 2006

Caching the guide in persistence storage, is a good idea regardless of stability. 2 use cases come to mind, a power outage, or an equipment move. The stability issues in the HR20 just exasperate this issues.

Earl Bonovich

· #15 · Nov 6, 2006

btmoore said:
Caching the guide in persistence storage, is a good idea regardless of stability. 2 use cases come to mind, a power outage, or an equipment move. The stability issues in the HR20 just exasperate this issues.

But in both of those cases... how often are you going to want to scheduled recordings right after the system reboots?

Possible in the equipment move, but on a power outage?

I understand with the frequen reboots... but in the long run......

hasan

· #16 · Nov 6, 2006

Another thing to consider (not directly guide related) is if you are subject to power outages/winkies/surges, etc (and who isn't), it would be a VERY good idea to run the HR20 on a UPS. Not only do you get surge protection built in, you also won't miss a recording unless the power outage is quite long. (Assuming you get a decent UPS in the first place.)

I would highly recommend an APC 1100 watt unit (available for around 120 bucks from Sams Club and other places) for the HR20. We get bad winter storms and lots of thunder-boomers in the summer, not to mention high winds. In rural Iowa, power winkies are pretty common and are quite hard on equipment.

I have 3 of them on my HT setup.

1: Onkyo Amp, and all "peripherals"

2. HR20

3. Sammy HL-R5667W (DLP)....which is VERY important for the fan/lamp. Anyone who owns a DLP and does not run it from a UPS is asking for big trouble.

With this kind of setup, I can actually use all the equipment for about 4 hours of total power interruption.

Now, one doesn't have to get as compulsive as I have, but putting the HR20 on a UPS is good practice. (or any DVR/DVD recorder)

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btmoore

· #17 · Nov 6, 2006

Earl Bonovich said:
But in both of those cases... how often are you going to want to scheduled recordings right after the system reboots?

Possible in the equipment move, but on a power outage?

I understand with the frequen reboots... but in the long run......

All I am saying it is a good idea to use persistent cache for guide data, there is little to no downside, I would have a hard time imagining the guide is more than a couple hundred Kb at most. Is it the most important issue, nope, I just think it is a good idea because it creates a potential positive side effects with no real downside.

It is just a good idea, not critical, there are soooooo many more important things that are wrong that development time needs spent on, it is a shame they did not consider doing as part of the original architecture, right now they should be focused on the major bugs and not a nice to have feature. Why do you feel is is such a bad idea? Do you see a negative that perhaps we are missing?

Earl Bonovich

· #18 · Nov 6, 2006

btmoore said:
Do you see a negative that perhaps we are missing?

The only negatives I can think of, is that the unit would have to write guide updates to two places.

The in RAM guide and the cached on the hard drive...
And depending on how frequently guide updates come down, that could be an overhead cost that will see it's appear in the Disk I/O chain.

PoitNarf

· #19 · Nov 6, 2006

Earl Bonovich said:
The only negatives I can think of, is that the unit would have to write guide updates to two places.

The in RAM guide and the cached on the hard drive...
And depending on how frequently guide updates come down, that could be an overhead cost that will see it's appear in the Disk I/O chain.

I would think it would be a better solution to back up the data in RAM to the hard drive every 30 minutes or so instead of continuously. But then again, I have no idea how big 14 days worth of guide data is. I'm guessing it can't be more than a couple of megabytes, if that.

Milominderbinder2

· #20 · Nov 6, 2006

brott said:
The HR20 Wish List Survey currently ranks this item 16th out of 69 items. Earl's explanation is a perfect reason for why it is not needed, but joejhawk's statement is exactly the reason people want it.

Once the Lockups stop or become far-between, then caching the guide data will truly become unnecessary.

Why is this a separate thread?

We got this answer from one liason:

It's in RAM because the guide will be updating 3200 channels twice every 30-minutes.

To see the Wishlist Thread and take the Survey, click here:

HR20 Wishlist (Survey)

To see more replies from this liason are in thread post 91.

- Craig

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