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I have an older TV that doesn't have DVI or HDMI inputs. It only has component inputs. DVD players (99% of them) won't upgrade a copy protected DVD to HD through the component outputs, so this is a concern of mine. Will HDCP be enforced in the hr20?

I came across this thread at another site.
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/14/4592.html

I went to channel 201 and my hr20's front panel stays in 1080i. Does any know if 201 still uses HDCP? If and when will D* inplement HDCP across the board? When they do, I'm screwed. I know someone will say buy another TV, but I have a 38" wide screen tube with a fantastic picture (yes tube). Thanks guys.

Will
 

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william8004 said:
I have an older TV that doesn't have DVI or HDMI inputs. It only has component inputs. DVD players (99% of them) won't upgrade a copy protected DVD to HD through the component outputs, so this is a concern of mine. Will HDCP be enforced in the hr20?

I came across this thread at another site.
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/14/4592.html

I went to channel 201 and my hr20's front panel stays in 1080i. Does any know if 201 still uses HDCP? If and when will D* inplement HDCP across the board? When they do, I'm screwed. I know someone will say buy another TV, but I have a 38" wide screen tube with a fantastic picture (yes tube). Thanks guys.

Will
It seems that Directv is "testing" some of this on several of their channels, for instance 201 and 498. The HR10 flags this on the banner when you change to one of these channels (and seems to get it stuck now as you then walk up or down the channels. I don't recall that "feature" when I first tested this under ver. 3.5...) Now the HR10 didn't downrez as far as I could tell, but these are really SD channels anyway. At least the TV didn't report a downrez.

I did check the HD link you provided. One thing they did not consider--this is NOT Directv's call here. Congress mandated it, ALL set top box providers must include it, and all carriers, whether they be cable, OTA, Satellite, fibre, or tin cups and string must pass the signal along as required by the copyright holder. Anyone thinking of switching to cable will run into the exact same ugliness.

And my Tivo has reported this flag being set on one episode of a network show once. A November showing of CSI on CBS primetime came up with that flag. I know wish I had spent some time testing my recording of that episode to see if it downrezed or not. I'm sorry I blew that opportunity.

I too have a TV that only does component. It was my big present to myself after a major consulting gig so is my biggest screen. And I'm mad as hops at Mitsubishi for failing to live up to their "Promise" they heavily touted in their early HD ready TVs. They didn't deliver a module that could handle the HDCP standards or DVI. But if anyone needs to hook up a firewire device needing copy protection, they are all on that... :(

Having said all that, I do not see this as being a major problem for a few more years. At least until recording devices that handle component inputs become available. And they just aren't there yet. Hopefully by then, I'll be able to save up enough to replace my Mits with a TV from a company that honors its promises...

Have a Happy New Year,
Tom
 

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tibber said:
One thing they did not consider--this is NOT Directv's call here. Congress mandated it, ALL set top box providers must include it, and all carriers, whether they be cable, OTA, Satellite, fibre, or tin cups and string must pass the signal along as required by the copyright holder.
No such law.

The FCC tried to mandate copy protection in all tuners and related boxes built for OTA broadcasting, but they were overruled by an appeals court (precisely because Congress had not authorized it). Since then, the content providers (i.e. the MPAA and RIAA) have made several attempts to ram a law through Congress that mandates copy protection be built into consumer electronics devices. These attempts have failed, but you can expect them to keep trying.

In the case of cable and satellite boxes, there has never been either an FCC directive or a law, but the content providers have pressured the cable and satellite companies to include copy protection in their set top boxes. (Their lever has been the threat to withhold premium content, which is more significant to cable and satellite than it is to OTA broadcasting.) Consequently, copy protection has become a contractual requirement in the cable and satellite venue. It is now "built-int" to most relevant industry standards and "certifications", such as HDMI and CableCard. In other words, a manufacturer cannot get a license to build a device that implements those standards without also agreeing to implement copy protection. But this does not have the "force of law".

The most relevant law here (so far) is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). It does not require any kind of copy protection - but it criminalizes any attempt to defeat copy protection, wherever it may exist.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California
 

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:) I stand corrected. Thanks for the very complete history! 'splains quite a bit.

Happy New Year,
Tom
 

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I guess I'm confused....I thought DHCP was just for only digital connections (HDMI) to prevent piracy/capturing of this digital content ? Hence, since Component connection is analog there is no DHCP (encryption) on it at all. It is only on HDMI connection when there is not a compliant DHCP target that the source is down-rezed.

Anyway, this is/was my understanding....is this not true ? :confused:

Thanks.
 

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TheKochs,

HDCP, in some drafts of the intent, might have been limited to digital as you suggest, but the HR10's implementation seems to indicate that component analog could also be downrez'ed since as you also point out, it is not compliant--even tho its not encrypted between STB and TV.

Have a Happy New Year,
Tom
 

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tibber said:
TheKochs,

HDCP, in some drafts of the intent, might have been limited to digital as you suggest, but the HR10's implementation seems to indicate that component analog could also be downrez'ed since as you also point out, it is not compliant--even tho its not encrypted between STB and TV.

Have a Happy New Year,
Tom
Boy, if this is true since all TV/PJs with component inputs don't have DHCP, and I'd say the majority of non-1080P folks are hooking up via Component, D* would lose a huge customer base. Right now, because of cable lengths alone I use component everywhere. If D* turned on a switch in the future that dropped all my HR20 & H20's component outputs to less than 1080/720 I would almost instantly move to another provider.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.
 

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thekochs said:
Boy, if this is true since all TV/PJs with component inputs don't have DHCP, and I'd say the majority of non-1080P folks are hooking up via Component, D* would lose a huge customer base. Right now, because of cable lengths alone I use component everywhere. If D* turned on a switch in the future that dropped all my HR20 & H20's component outputs to less than 1080/720 I would almost instantly move to another provider.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.
I hear that! But also have to ask "where would we go?" If all the providers are forced, either by law, fcc mandate, or by contract as William McCain pointed out, they would all be doing it to us.

Have a Happy New Year,
Tom
 

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thekochs said:
Boy, if this is true since all TV/PJs with component inputs don't have DHCP, and I'd say the majority of non-1080P folks are hooking up via Component, D* would lose a huge customer base. Right now, because of cable lengths alone I use component everywhere. If D* turned on a switch in the future that dropped all my HR20 & H20's component outputs to less than 1080/720 I would almost instantly move to another provider.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.
I don't know what they will do but if something like this happens it will almost certainly happen to all providers.. it is the producers of the content not the distributors who want this..
 

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Duh!

I just realized that TVs, IIRC are not required to have HDMI! Only digital tuners. I had only been thinking about the large installed base and forgotten the larger base of new TVs that also don't do HDMI.

Someone, correct me if I'm wrong...Otherwise this is bigger than I first thought.

But Have a Happy New Year Too!
Tom
 

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I'm not too concerned.....unlike most think it is not the content provider that makes the decisions....it is the MSOs (Media Service Orgs)......basically, Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Dish, D*. Remember, the studios and the networks are trying to sell their packages to the MSOs. The folks making the boxes (SA, Mot/BCS, LG, Echostar, etc.) only do what the MSOs tell them. Now I'm not saying the content folks (eg. Sony, Movie Studios, etc.) are not carrying a big stick...they are....but IMHO the reason the content folks are pushing for laws this shows the MSO resistance. I think they all are aware of the install base of hardware and the ramifications of forcing HDCP on the masses of analog connections and the havoc it would create.

We'll see.
 

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thekochs said:
I thought DHCP was just for only digital connections (HDMI) to prevent piracy/capturing of this digital content ? Hence, since Component connection is analog there is no DHCP (encryption) on it at all.
You are correct. HDCP per se applies to digital connections only, specifically to DVI and HDMI.

Because HDCP does not apply to analog output, and there is no way to determine if the receiving device is "safe" (i.e. does not permit recording of the content), the content providers have pressured for two other ways to close the "analog hole": They want to be able to tell the set top box to either turn off the analog output entirely, or to "down-res" it to no more than 480p. They have lobbied Congress, so far unsuccessfully, to pass a law that requires consumer electronic devices to do able to be directed to do one or the other of these two things, so as to "close the analog hole". (They figure that since copy protection is already built into the relevant digital standards, such as HDMI, the "analog hole" is their main remaining "problem area".)

The primary battleground today is actually over terrestrial OTA broadcasting. Years of pressure from the content providers have already forced the cable and satellite operators to "do the bidding" of the content providers. The ability of the content to contain a "flag" that requires "down res" or cutoff of the high def analog outputs goes all the way back to the RCA DTC-100, which was one of the very first high-def satellite receivers (it did not have a digital output, HDMI had not yet been invented). However, except in a few cases where the flag was accidentally turned on by mistake, nobody to date has ever actually required that analog output be turned off or "down res"-ed.

The content providers did succeed in getting the FCC to mandate a copy protection flag for terrestrial OTA broadcasting. Even there, however, the FCC balked at "down-res"-ing, and in fact the FCC directive prohibited that practice (the flag was to be used to prohibit copying, but not high-def viewing). The FCC directive was overturned by an appeals court, which ruled that the FCC had no such jurisdiction over consumer electronics devices. The content providers have continued to lobby Congress to pass a law that would reinstate the FCC directive.

The new high def DVD players (HD-DVD and BluRay), again due to pressure from content providers, do have the ability to down-res or shut off the analog component outputs. This is implemented on a "per DVD" basis - that is, there is a "flag" on the DVD that can tell the player to "down res" or shut off the analog output. The content providers (MPAA members) originally planned to release most high def DVDs with this flag turned on. At the last moment, however, they backed off, fearing a consumer backlash (since a great many "early adopters" have TV sets without HDMI inputs, and thus would be unable to view high def DVDs in full resolution on their "analog input only" TV sets). Consequently, most high def DVDs released so far do not alter the analog output, it can be viewed in full resolution.

But the capability to "down res" the analog output is there, even if unused. It is built into virtually all cable and satellite STBs and into all the new high def DVD players. It is not implemented in any terrestrial OTA broadcast tuners, either analog (NTSC) or digital (ATSC). (Although I once had a combination terrestrial/satellite STB, made by Panasonic, that displayed a "copyright protection" message when it was tuned to a weak terrestrial analog NTSC station! But that was simply a "bug", not a feature. Nobody has even even proposed any form of copy protection for analog NTSC broadcasting, which is inherently low res and which is going to disappear in two years anyway.)

William C. McCain
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thekochs said:
I'm not too concerned.....unlike most think it is not the content provider that makes the decisions....it is the MSOs (Media Service Orgs).
MSO actually stands for "Multiple System Operator". It is industry (and FCC) jargon for the large cable companies.

Small one-system cable operators are not held to the same requirements that the MSOs are. For instance, the MSOs, by FCC directive, are required to offer CableCards for "cable-ready" TVs and tuners (such as the TiVo Series3). The small operators are not required to do the same. Due to industry consolidation, there are fewer and fewer small operators, but they do still exist.

Bill
 

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wmcain, thanks for the feedback....very educational. I'll cross my fingers that analog stays clear. Funny thing is I have no desire to rip these guys off but my bigger concern is that like most AV enthusiasts my TV and settops are not 6ft. or less from each other....I have a rack downstairs that serves the whoel house. I have cable runs all over the house so component is much more forgiving that running HDMI a zillion feet with expensive repeaters.

Thanks !
 

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Sorry to open a can of worms. I didn't think there would be this much productive discussion on it. Maybe Earl can put his ear on the rail to see if they plan to cut us off HD on the component inputs. (Earl, make sure it's not the third rail).

If anyone bought an upscaling DVD player and connected it to component inputs, you probably aren't getting the full use of the player. You either have to buy a non-brand name player. Or get the Sansung HD841. It shipped with a hack to disable the region and HDCP and Samsung is in the process of getting sued.


Will
 

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thekochs said:
... my bigger concern is that like most AV enthusiasts my TV and settops are not 6ft. or less from each other...
I have a 25 foot HDMI cable without repeaters and it works just fine. Good quality cables should be able to handle HDMI runs of 35 feet or even 50 feet. Nice thing about a digital signal is, if it works, it works. There's no intermediate degradation in signal quality, as there is with analog (where hum and noise and just plain signal loss can actually be seen "on screen").

Bill
 

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wmccain said:
I have a 25 foot HDMI cable without repeaters and it works just fine. Good quality cables should be able to handle HDMI runs of 35 feet or even 50 feet. Nice thing about a digital signal is, if it works, it works. There's no intermediate degradation in signal quality, as there is with analog (where hum and noise and just plain signal loss can actually be seen "on screen").

Bill
You are lucky them....HDMI & DVI spec is 15ft. There is a slew of folks on the AVS Forums that get pixelation from runs over 15ft. If yours works great...you are in the minority....lucky guy. :)

Question.....I'm considering buying a Blu-Ray player that also upscales. If I have one TV on HDMI I know is fine but if the other is driven from the component out connections I will get 1080i...correct ?
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Blu_ray/Blu_rayPlayer/BD_P1000XAA.asp
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Question.....I'm considering buying a Blu-Ray player that also upscales. If I have one TV on HDMI I know is fine but if the other is driven from the component out connections I will get 1080i...correct ?
I've been dealing with this for a while now. DVD players will not output 720 or 1080 through the component video if the material is copy protected. The inustry is forcing the vendors to do so.
 

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thekochs said:
They say this has not been implemented on any discs until 2012. Have you seen examples on your playback that does ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Constraint_Token
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html
Here is a quote right from the Toshiba HD-A1 manual

For up-conversion of standard definition DVD, an HDMI or HDCP capable DVI input on your display device is required for copy protected content.

You'll find that on all major vendors. That's why I got worried about the HR20. Since the industry is suing Samsung, will they sue D* next?
 
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