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· Legend
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been a Dish Network subscriber since the Model 5000 was introduced.

I added the HDTV adapter to my 5000 when it was avaliable, and after a long hard effort was finally able to get an HDTV. I love my 5000 for the local link intergration, and the perfomrace has been great.

During the last Tech Chat, I sent an e-mail to them about the 5000 and HDTV and any new HD content (such as the discover channel) I asked very clearly, if I would have to upgrade my equipment to receive any new HD content that dish would carry, or if my 5000 and adapter would be all that I needed. I was assured by the tech support team that there not be any reason to change my setup, that ALL HD content would be viewable with the 5000 and HDTV module.

Later it was announced that the 5000 would not work with new HD content (such as the discover channel) and that HD customers would have to purchase a Model 6000 and the new adapter. I found this to be very upsetting, becaue 600.00 for a new receiver is just not money that I have avaliable to me at this time.

I sent a copy of my e-mail form the tech chat, and their reply to [email protected]. And I was shocked at the reply I got back.

Basicly they told me they did not care, that I would have to upgrade to the 6000, but Dish does not sell this unit, it is only avaliable from a dealer. And there was nothing they couold do to help me, and had no intrest in helping me. I was very shocked by this attitude. You are already a customer, if you want the new HD content then spend more money. We don't care how much you invested to get the 5000 and HD adapter, we don't care that you like local link, subscribe to locals on the sat, they are better. Explained that Dish does not offer locals in my area so that is why I like local link, They said sorry, we don;t have local link in the 6000, when the merger is complete then you can subscribe to your locals and it will be just like the 5000.

This discussion has been going on for a three weeks, and Dish will not offer any help. I suggested that Dish should have a program where current long term subscribers could purchase new equipment and have it billed over tiem to their dish bill. They told me that was not possible, and would not be in the future eiter.

This attitude, and this forcing a person to have to purchase new equipment is not what I call good business. Now where I was for the merger, I am not so sure that I can support it. After all the years with Dish, I may have to return to cable to be able to get HD content, and the Disovoery Channel in HD. I know some will say if you have an HD tv then you can afford to purchase a 6000. Well that is not always true. I save moeny for 2 years to purchase the HD tv, and right now in our current economy, I just don;t have the cash to spend to purchase over 600.00 of equipment out right. All I asked dish to do was honor the statement that tech sent me about content, or to at least help me purchase a 6000 on a time pay basis. Dish was not intrested.

As a result I have sent entire copies of the e-mail exchange, along with the receipt from the purchase (full price) of my 5000 and HD adapter, to the FCC, and the DOJ, and to my congressman, and our attorney general. I cannot see the merger has a good thing when this is way they plan to do business. Add this to all the problems with the PVR receivers from Dish, and I would say this merger is dead.

And all Dish had to do, to keep me, and to keep my support for the merger, was to try to find a way to help me upgrade, at a cost that was affordable. They made the promise of no upgraded needed. They should have made good on that promise, or at least offred to help.

The only thing that will change my mind on this now, is if someone can show me a way to get the new 6000 and adabter, on some pay over time method, or at a resonable cost. Over 600.00 dollars is just to much, with what I have already paid to have Dish programming.

Two 5000's (only one has hdtv adapter)
One 4900
One SW-64
Dish 500 + Dish aimed at 61.5
Life time Sky Angel subscriber.
And I supscribe to the Everything pak from Dish and CBS (HD) my local CBS agreed.

Thanks
Gary
 

· Hall Of Fame
Joined
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7,510 Posts
Where were you in July and August when Dish DID have an upgrade offer for subs with the HD adapter ? It wasn't "free equipment", but it WAS cheaper than what other subs would have to pay for the 6000 /8PSK combo.

To me, it sounds like sour grapes on your part. Technology changes - get over it...
 
G

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Just out of curiousity Gary, what are you feeding your 5000/modulator into to be able to see Dish's HD programming like CBS HD? Does your HDTV have an integrated OTA tuner or are you using a different standalone tuner, or what?
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
First, this is not sour grapes on my part. I paid full price for both the receiver and the HD adapter. The promo offer that dish gave me was for a FREE adapter, but I would still have to purchase the 6000 at full price. (DISH DOES NOT SELL THE 6000).

As for technolige changes, that is correct. But that change should not FORCE a person to have to make a complete re-investment in there equipment.

Dish stated, that the 5000 and HD adapter would recevie all HD content. To change from that means that Dish did not represent the porduct in good faith. I use my PC and I have never been FORCED to have to buy a complete new pc to gain access to a new feature. Dish could have avoided this. But no they are seeing this as a way to make more money from peopel by forcing the new receiver.

As for CBS HD, I get that from DISH network. My local over the air CBS agreed to the waiver so I could get CBS HD / CBS from Dish, My local CBS station agreed becaue they are about 2 years away from completing the HD upgrade.

A recent letter from a congressman, indicates that he agress with me on this issue, and that Dish is doing a good faith business when they are forceing the purchase of a new receiver at full price, and the requirment to return the HD module for the 5000 that you pruchased, is a bit out of line as well.

It is time Dish find a better way to make the 6000 and all their recevier easier to purchase, and use. And they FIX the recevier problems.

Again, I am a Dish supporter from the start, but this has done me, a long time subscriber wrong.
 

· AllStar
Joined
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64 Posts
They are not FORCING anything on you. The programming you have always received is available to you. However, new programming, including Discovery, will be in a different format, requiring a hardware upgrade.

As for you PC analogy, you're off base there as well. Try plugging in your VESA local bus video card to a computer you buy today. Better yet, try plugging a current nVidia GEForce 4 video card into a 386 machine. Try using SIMM memory modules in a current PC, or current SDRAM in a 386/286.

Technology changes. Dish is using a new compression program, not available at the time the 5000/HD Modulator was announced. The HDTV module was announced as a patch, not a complete solution to receive currently available programming, several years ago.

Jeff

Originally posted by garydw
As for technolige changes, that is correct. But that change should not FORCE a person to have to make a complete re-investment in there equipment.

Dish stated, that the 5000 and HD adapter would recevie all HD content. To change from that means that Dish did not represent the porduct in good faith. I use my PC and I have never been FORCED to have to buy a complete new pc to gain access to a new feature. Dish could have avoided this. But no they are seeing this as a way to make more money from peopel by forcing the new receiver.
 
G

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But you still havent answered my question. I'm asking which digital OTA tuner you have the output of the modulator connected to, so as to be able to see the HD channels out of the 5000/modulator in true HDTV. Does your TV have a built in digital tuner, are you using a HDTV card in your PC or do you have another OTA HD STB, or what?
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yes, Dish is forcing the upgrade. How, by not offering backwards compatablity.

My pc analogy is quite correct. At no time have I had to purchase a COMPLETE new computer. Only a single componet, such as a video card.

Again, Dish, made the promise in their e-mail to me, that there would be no change that would render the 5000 HD adapter incompatiable. This is there statement, made the night of the last Tech Chat. So keep that in mind, Dish made the promise, and then changed the rules, and told me I would have to pay for the new equipment.

This is NOT a good business practice on the part of Dish, and they know it. And as such, all consumers will loose, because this, along with other issues, DP, PVR problems, etc wil hurt the merger.

I am not the only person who thinks Dish is wrong here. I presented this issue to Direct TV, and they have offered me an HDTV receiver on a very resonable offer if I would like to change services. Same with my local cable company.

All I asked Dish to do, was to help me purchase the new equipment on some time of time pay, or at a resonalbe price due to the money I already have invested with them, and the amount I have paid them over the years. But no, even with their own promise, they still would not offer any assistance, they just wanted more money, and they did not even care about their long term subsciber. I want to make it clear, I did not ask for the 6000 for free, I just asked for a payment plan, or a price that was resonalbe.
 

· Godfather/Supporter
Joined
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286 Posts
You are wrong about the upgrade offer!!!

You get the 6000 direct from them for a much reduced price with the NEW adapter.

You only send in your HD modulator. You KEEP your 5000. Hell of a deal.

I am a 5000 owner and P'O'ed as well. I didnt have the adapter to do the promotion so my 5000 was obsolete. You have the adapter so are lucky.

Try and get the deal - I dont know if it is still available but if you complain they should give it to you. BTW, very FEW people at DISH are aware of the promotion - may be hard to get to someone who can help.
 

· Godfather/Supporter
Joined
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286 Posts
I just checked and they certainly did take the deal down, so try and complain. Thats not fair that they only offered it for a short time. It should stay in effect indefinately! I think thats the core of the issue here.
 

· Hall Of Fame
Joined
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1,637 Posts
If I remember correctly, the price was $299 with the 8PSK adapter, which is a helluva good price. You do have to send them your HD modulator in exchange though. Keep calling until you find someone who knows about the deal.
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have and just so everyone know the e-mail telling me that I have to purchase the 6000 from a dealer came from the [email protected] e-mail address.

This is the Quote from her e-mail to me, this was the last e-mail she sent after several calls and e-mails. It goes like this.

"Dish Network cannot make a special offer to you in regards to the 6000. Dish Network does not sell this unit directly but it is available through certain retailers. If you have been unable to find one locally, there are several internet retailers that offer the unit. The 8VSB module for analog and digital off-air reception will only work with the model 6000 receiver and is usually purchased along with the 6000 initially. Our service department does have the 8VSB available for sale to people who purchased the 6000 without the modulator. "

Later in the e-mail Ms. Lisby at [email protected] offers me instead the change to upgrade to the 501 for 99.00.

This is why we are having problems. I was not notified of any preivous offers, and then the e-mail from tech support, and then this. This is not a good representation of the merger.

And this was from the e-mail.
 
G

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Yes, we all know that the Personal Computer business is a great example to compare to other business. God help us if Compaq/HP, Dell start making automobiles and airplanes. We will either be all flat broke or dead. Technology is not an excuse for bad customer service. Some people think it should, but then again they end up in the unemployment line shaking their heads and still never quite "get it".
 

· Icon
Joined
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955 Posts
Ordinarily you would have to purchase a 6000 from an independent retailer. But dmodemd and DarrellP are correct - from around the middle of June thru the end of August an upgrade offer was available directly from E* for subs like you with a 5000 & the RF HD adaptor. You sent in the HD adaptor & got back a 6000 with the 8PSK module for $299.

It was anounced on the C-chat and the phone # was given on the HD demo ch. This promo affected so few people that I would not be surprised if any CSR you happened to talk to on the regular 800# would be unaware of it.

If you actually called in during the promo period & weren't properly informed about it despite asking for some kind of courtesy deal to upgrade to the 6000 I would recommend that you email a statement to that effect very politely to: [email protected] and ask if, under the circumstances, they would consider offering the same upgrade deal to you at this time.
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Please see my post, I did contact [email protected], and I have quoted their response of no help in getting the 6000.

Here is the quote again:

"Dish Network cannot make a special offer to you in regards to the 6000. Dish Network does not sell this unit directly but it is available through certain retailers. If you have been unable to find one locally, there are several internet retailers that offer the unit. The 8VSB module for analog and digital off-air reception will only work with the model 6000 receiver and is usually purchased along with the 6000 initially. Our service department does have the 8VSB available for sale to people who purchased the 6000 without the modulator. "

So Dish is not being very helpfull.
 

· Icon
Joined
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955 Posts
Whoever responded with the email you quote above is not understanding the issue. Try again & explain that it was the 8PSK ("Enhanced HD") module for the Model 6000 that the promo was for, NOT the 8VSB digital OTA module.
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I just wanted to provide an update to everyone. Dish has responded again and as told us that we are free to return to cable if we like. They do not plan to offer us the upgrade, or any upgrade assistance at all. Also the lady form [email protected], told me that she is not going to refer my comments or e-mail to Charlie Ergen.

So this look like good bye to Dish after all these years. And with my departure comes a very strong push to bring an end to the merger. I also own a sizeable amount of stock in Dish, I wonder of Rober would like to buy that up.

I have sent my e-mail exchange to the BBB in Colorodo, the Attorney General of TN, the Governor of TN, the State Legislatour, the FCC, the DOJ, and to all members of congress, and to the NAB, and the SEC.

Good luck Charlie.
 

· Hall Of Fame/Supporter
Joined
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2,818 Posts
Well I have news for you all those letters will not do you any good either. The BBB might send a letter to echostar which echostar will send back a copy of the promotion showing you inquired about it after the promotion expired, and they will close the case.

It was stated very clearly that the 5000 could not recieve the new signals in every charlie chat and communication from E* that I saw. Why not post this email that you got that said that the 5000 would work with DHDT?

But, you can still recieve all the old content you were recieving before. Now you can hold out hope that if they have the merger your HDTV box will be replaced when they upgrade the system with one that will work again for free.

It cost me $150 bucks to upgrade my 2 6000s (one module for $50 and one subscription to DHDT). I paid full price for them also. Now they come with the module included.
 

· Legend
Joined
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104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sorry, that is not exactly quite true. Along with the letters, I have also sent the documentation that showed I was not able to view the Chralie Chat during the promo, as I was traveling for my employer, and thus away from the Dish.

2nd And this is important. Dish did not follow a good faith business practice. They are aware of all owners of the 5000, they shold have sent an insert in the bill, a letter, or even better honored the agreement when the documentation was provided to my travels. The last chat I saw was the tech chat and they DID not provide this information. And I am sorry in my business, I do have to travel, and this was one of thoose times.

And yes there will be results from the letters, because I am already seeing them. Dish will not win this merger with such business practices. And that is just the way it is.
 

· Godfather
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414 Posts
As a 5000 with mod and 6000 owner I'm a little more tempered about the whole thing.

I'm not really up in arms over DiscoveryHD. I mean, it's a lot of money for programming that I'm not all that interested in. But, if they force money out of me for HD-HBO and my O&O CBS there's going to be a can of whoop a$$ that needs to be opened.

I, like most people who bought the HD Modulator researched the purchase. I went to Dishes site and read the HD FAQ that laid out Dish's position. As marketing material the FAQ pretty much said the 5000+Modulator would pass all of Dish's HD content through with out modification. At no time was the consumer informed that in as little as two years could the hardware be obsolete.

Technology might change quickly, but this isn't an unregulated industry. DBS operators follow all sorts of gov't rules from DBS licensing, Satilite Space, Closed Caption Requirements, etc. There is a long established expection in the consumer electronics industry when it comes to these matters. These expections where further enforced by marketing materials that Dish created. In fact the way that Dish marketed HD might be far more damning, as it makes it a consumer protection issue.

While there may not be a FCC regulation about this, there certainly are a number of state and federal marketing and consumer protection laws that may apply.

Some things of interest:

VideoGuide was ordered to give each customer a 100% refund when the service was discontinued a few years after release.

The UK gave Black and White TV owers 30 years to switch to color.

NTSC will most likely last over 50 years until is it finally retired.

I don't think asking for a HD transmission format to last more than a few years is much to ask.

However, I think GaryDW is a little early to be outraged, and I hear that Dish will offer a 921 deal to owners, but really unless that deal is for a free or extemely low cost I'm reaching for the whoop a$$ can.

The best place to take your case is your State Attorny Generals office. The FCC is so Anti-Consumer, Pro-Business it's not even funny. Dish is a company doing business in your state. As such, your AG office will most likely jump on this if they get enough complaints. The moment dish send out the letter to the 5000 customers as many should file with the state AG office. In particular if your in AZ, CA, CO, MN, NY, WA. These are very pro-consumer states.

I would indicate that Dish sold you hardware and services package designed to do HD. Further they had marketing materials that indicated the scope of service to be provided and that at no time did Dish indicate that a few years after launch they may change signaling schemes forcing you to buy new hardware. In fact they went out of their way to say that they would not be touching the signal at all, mearing passing it through. It was marketed as an HD solution, not an HD solution until Charlie decides there's more money to be had with the bandwidth savings.

But until Dish fires the first shot, no one has any standing. But when it happens, you lurkers need to write some letters, because you shouldn't be forced to eat $800 for a 5000+Mod paper weight. It's not ethical, it's not good business, and in many states it's most likely not legal.

I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
 
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