dish relocation/SWM advice???

1747 Views 7 Replies 4 Participants Last post by Punkitup, Aug 2, 2012

Punkitup

Discussion Starter · Jul 25, 2012

· We are in the Boston market our package is HD "Choice Extra Classic" plus HBO.
· Two receivers a HR21-200 (+1TB eSATA), and a H21-200, no plans for more.
· Current SL5 (4 wire) Dish was installed by D when we upgraded to HDTV in Aug 2008; it replaced my old self-installed 18" round dish.

The line of sight to the satellites was questionable at the time of the dish's install, but the only other option was a ground mount, and the installer didn't seem to keen to pursue that.

Every summer with the foliage reception on the western birds would get spotty; it wasn't much of a concern, other than 'Error 902' guide messages.

We have now effectively lost the 103. Checking the transponders I get rough averaged signal strength of 47 for 103(ca/cb), and on 103(s) 9 of the 16 available transponders are showing 0, and the others average about 38 for signal strength.

The dish needs to be moved, however the only location I can see is a ground mount, meaning a 100' cable run from the dish to the utility room where it joins the house wiring (about 80' of that run trenched into the lawn). That could be longer depending on how we enter the house, so for the sake of argument let's call it 130' -- and then additionally a pair running about 25' to each receiver. So we are talking about 155' between dish and receiver (heck call it 160').

I could do this dish move myself (I fairly capable) however I would just assume not, as I am very busy now, and I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of money to have what I want..

You have the info, now the questions….

Will D do the move for me, free of commitment, based on the loss of signal?

I am thinking that RG-6 (I have some good stuff) is going to be iffy at these lengths, do you guys agree?

Will there be an opportunity to talk to the installer beforehand and tell him we may need RG-11, and can they provide it?

If not, then I guess I should buy some RG-11 and connectors, will they have a problem with using my stuff?

I don't think my market (Boston) gets anything off the 110, 119 birds should I consider replacing the 5 LNB with a 3 LNB?

Considering what four cable runs of RG-11 would cost should I consider going to a SWM LNB?

What is the comparison between SWM and 4 Wire on long runs such as mine?

Anyone what to venture a guess as to what I would be paying an installer to make this happen? Whatever it is, I still think it would be cheaper than doing it myself - keeping in mind the pole, trenching, tools on hand, and time spent.

I have been out of the loop for a long time, it is a shame I don't know an competent indepent installer here in Central Mass, I would deal with them.

Thanks for any input, and sorry for the long post.

Peace
James

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MrShowtime

· #2 · Jul 25, 2012

Will D do the move for me, free of commitment, based on the loss of signal?
If you just call in and say you are getting searching for satellite signal, they will most likely issue a service call and the tech will have to relocate the dish (or may kick the job saying no line of sight). You may/may not be charged depending on the protection plan. If you don't have the protection plan put it in as dish relocate anyways. Same price and nothing sucks more than a surprise relocate on your 2nd am service call with 2 more to go

I am thinking that RG-6 (I have some good stuff) is going to be iffy at these lengths, do you guys agree?
Its on the boarder of recommended length

Will there be an opportunity to talk to the installer beforehand and tell him we may need RG-11, and can they provide it?
We only carry solid copper rg6

If not, then I guess I should buy some RG-11 and connectors, will they have a problem with using my stuff?
I've used an RG-11 run that a customer had put in before, I don't know if its technically its to code, but the customer buried 125' ahead of time so I didn't complain

I don't think my market (Boston) gets anything off the 110, 119 birds should I consider replacing the 5 LNB with a 3 LNB?
If you don't speak spanish or need the 119 for anything in your market, 3 lnb makes life a TON easier

Considering what four cable runs of RG-11 would cost should I consider going to a SWM LNB?
If you ever get more than 8 tuners, you will need the extra lines buried and that would suck big time for your upgrade

What is the comparison between SWM and 4 Wire on long runs such as mine?
Would be similar, SWM has a little less loss

Anyone what to venture a guess as to what I would be paying an installer to make this happen? Whatever it is, I still think it would be cheaper than doing it myself - keeping in mind the pole, trenching, tools on hand, and time spent.

In my market Pole mount is generally $50 and that includes the first 20 feet of cable buried. After that its $1/foot. If you can get the cable and bury it ahead of time you would have a very happy installer and might even save a few bucks. Pole is just a 2" OD

I have been out of the loop for a long time, it is a shame I don't know an competent indepent installer here in Central Mass, I would deal with them.

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Punkitup

Discussion Starter · #3 · Aug 2, 2012

Mr. Showtime, thanks for your reply, it is good to have folks to bounce ideas off. Sorry it took so long to respond but I have been swamped.

I have decided to go with a 3LNB (4 line), and I have chosen to give it a shot without RG-11.

Here is my reasoning… first I already have 1000' of this RG-6 BC Quad Shield cable on hand
http://www.vextratech.com/pdfs/V621Q.pdf

Going to RG-11 would save me roughly 3dB in attenuation per 100', but the DC resistance would be at least 42% greater due to the copper cover steal conductor of the RG-11. Here is an example.
http://awapps.commscope.com/catalog/uniprise/product_details.aspx?id=34368

Now folks might say I should get RG-11 with a bare copper, but I am afraid it is just prohibitively expensive, seriously try pricing Belden 7731A. I do have a source for purchasing Times LRM400-75 by the foot, and it would spec out well, but still it costs $0.85 a foot and connectors for that stuff are $18 each.

So I think I'm going to try it with the RG-6 that I have -- and if I need to, it will still be less dough out-of-pocket to add an amplifier. Speaking of amplifiers, I would like to hear preemptive suggestions on one; keeping in mind I have just two receivers and no in-line multiswitch.

I invite and comments, suggestions, or criticisms of my plan… please

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carl6

· #4 · Aug 2, 2012

For a 100 foot run, the solid copper RG6 should be perfectly okay. If you do run into problems, I would get a Sonora power inserter / phase locker (not an amplifier) and place it where the coax enters your house, then go into a WB68 multiswitch, then distribute from that to your receivers. (If you get the power inserter you will need the multiswitch, otherwise not).

The problem with long runs is normally DC voltage drop over distance due to resistance of the wire. That's why the need for solid copper core. Signal attenuation does not start to become a problem until you get much longer runs. Thus the suggestion for a power inserter rather than an amplifier.

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Punkitup

Discussion Starter · #5 · Aug 2, 2012

Carl, thanks for the reply!
As I noted in that mesh-mash of text that is my first post… the distance from dish to receiver is going to be more like 160'.

Yeah, I kind of figured that low DC resistance was going to be the more critical variable and RG-11 wasn't going to supply that short of bare copper.

Thanks, I have noted the 5SATPL-T polarity locker.

I was thinking that if needed one of these LA145A-T amps could be placed up stream of it.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=LA145A-T&d=Sonora-LA145A-T-DBS-14-dB-Gain-Quad-Line-Ka%2FKu-Amplifier-With-Power-Supply-(LA145AT)

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cabletech

· #6 · Aug 2, 2012

You will be okey with the RG6 at 100ft, but if you need to to longer then consider the RG11. You can get it for less then $0.85/ft and connecters are only about a buck or less.

Also, you will wont to place the cable in PVC conduct and use 90degree swipe's not 90degree bends, on both ends. By placing in conduuct, you only have to dig once but can still replace or add cable. Use 1.5" PVC as this will allow you to go to upgrade to 4 RG11 if needed.

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Punkitup

Discussion Starter · #7 · Aug 2, 2012

cabletech said:
consider the RG11. You can get it for less then $0.85/ft and connecters are only about a buck or less.

You have a source for RG-11 with a solid copper conductor at that price?

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Punkitup

Discussion Starter · #8 · Aug 2, 2012

BTW Cabletech, thanks for the tip about the conduit.

I have in the past found it useful to use a pair of 45s to increase the radius. I have a number of conduit runs around my property.

This is the terminal end of one, that is feeding my tower. I actually only used a single 45 sweep below ground on that 2" because it didn't need to be vertical, and it made it a lot easier to pull that corrugated feedline which is Andrew Heliax LDF4-50A.

Note the red beach cooler: that was one of my bright ideas that has actually worked fine. I bored a hole in the bottom and placed the cooler over the top of an 8' ground rod, bonded to 9 others spidering out from the tower legs. I then 1/2 filled the cooler with stone to keep it in place, and topped the ground rod with the system of lightening suppressors you can see in the next photo. I won't go into more detail just its control lines in-out, and Heliax in going to Davis RF Bury-Flex out.

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