[arasner]

TMS is the leading provider of PSIP information. No other company offers the breadth and depth of information for DTV receivers than TMS. Join the hundreds of broadcasters relying on TMS for all their vital information needs. Our data is accurate, timely and gives you everything you need from one convenient and comprehensive database.

Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) is data that is transmitted along with a station's DTV signal that tells DTV receivers important information about the station and what is being broadcast. The most important function of PSIP is to provide a method for DTV receivers to identify a DTV station and to determine how a receiver can tune to it. PSIP identifies both the DTV channel and the associated analog channel.

In addition to identifying the channel number, PSIP tells the receiver whether multiple program channels are being broadcast and, if so, how to find them. It identifies whether the programs are closed-captioned, conveys V-chip information, if data is associated with the program, and much more. Properly encoded PSIP data in DTV signals is vital information for receivers to correctly identify and tune to a particular station.

 

[Brantel]

I guess they need to read the OTA issue thread to see how accurate and comprehensive their database is. Real world feedback for free. Now lets see what they do with that feedback.

 

[Earl Bonovich]

From re-reading the OP... DTV in that case is "Digital Television" and NOT DirecTV.

The HR20 does not use the PSIP information.
It uses the data it gets from the Tribune Media Service data feeds, which they then send to your unit.

PSIP is "limited" on what it sends... and each PSIP feed doesn't include the necessary 14 days worth of guide information, to schedule future recordings.

For some of the older DirecTV receivers, they relied on the PSIP channel mapping. But I don't think the HR20 does.

PSIP has it's own "flaws" as some carriers in the past, either didn't send the correct PSIP, or didn't at all. We had a channel here, WCIU 26. It's PSIP was mapping it to 1-1 Which it wasn't and it caused problems with the HR10 in the early days here in the Chicago area.

 

[arasner]

From re-reading the OP... DTV in that case is "Digital Television" and NOT DirecTV.

The HR20 does not use the PSIP information.
It uses the data it gets from the Tribune Media Service data feeds, which they then send to your unit.

PSIP is "limited" on what it sends... and each PSIP feed doesn't include the necessary 14 days worth of guide information, to schedule future recordings.

For some of the older DirecTV receivers, they relied on the PSIP channel mapping. But I don't think the HR20 does.

PSIP has it's own "flaws" as some carriers in the past, either didn't send the correct PSIP, or didn't at all. We had a channel here, WCIU 26. It's PSIP was mapping it to 1-1 Which it wasn't and it caused problems with the HR10 in the early days here in the Chicago area.

So do we think part of the problem is Tribune and part of the problem is a software issue with the OTA issues or is all this still up in the air?

 

[Earl Bonovich]

So do we think part of the problem is Tribune and part of the problem is a software issue with the OTA issues or is all this still up in the air?

Right now, I would say a combination of both... but PSIP isn't in the equation.
It is the Guide data that is sent to DirecTV, which is then in turn sent to us.

 

[Stuart Sweet]

Info I've gotten from the Program Director over at KESQ/KDFX in Palm Desert, CA confirms exactly what Earl has said. He told me that Tribune's data can go out 4 weeks and PSIP rarely has enough to cover the 2 weeks that D* promises for their EPG.

It seems that the PSIP system was mandated by the government and as far as my research shows, it is a good alternative for people who have nothing, but no replacement for an electronic program guide. If you think of it that way, it's like Medicare for TV, and most folks, given the choice, would rather use something else.

Nobody is perfect, and it seems Tribune isn't either. I'm trying to get some contact info just to tell the people over there, "hey, read this forum post, it's free R&D".

 

[arasner]

I emailed the CEO of tribune and gave him the OTA thread link and just said, hey, can you guys take a look at this.

 

[Stuart Sweet]

Thanks, arasner -

Hopefully the people at Tribune will take it seriously. I know that broadcasters take things like this very seriously, things like people not tuning in because they don't know what's on.

 

[DishDog]

So where did Tivo get their guide info?

 

[Earl Bonovich]

So where did Tivo get their guide info?

TiVo also get's it from Tribune. But I do know that the HR10-250 does use part of the PSIP to correctly map the channels to the guide data.

It was an issue here in Chicago, when the Guide data was for 26-1
But the PSIP that WCIU was pushing out, had the HR10-250 mapping it to 1-1.

The data didn't line up, and you couldn't set a recording for that channel.

 

[jonaswan2]

Too slow.

 

[arasner]

TiVo also get's it from Tribune. But I do know that the HR10-250 does use part of the PSIP to correctly map the channels to the guide data.

It was an issue here in Chicago, when the Guide data was for 26-1
But the PSIP that WCIU was pushing out, had the HR10-250 mapping it to 1-1.

The data didn't line up, and you couldn't set a recording for that channel.

If the data isnt mapped correctly from Tribune, we wouldnt be able to see it live either, correct?

 

[Earl Bonovich]

If the data isnt mapped correctly from Tribune, we wouldnt be able to see it live either, correct?

Right now... If there is no guide data information for a channel... you can't tune it in.

In cases like WBBM-DT in Chicago; the Guide data is there... but there is something else going on that is causing it not to work.

 

[Tom Robertson]

Earl,

From some of the local stations engineers' comments, it sounds like the local stations have some direct effect on the PSIP as it is transmitted (as well as what gets fed into Tribune.) Especially in the area of mapping information. Does that reflect your understanding as well?

And I suspect that cable companies strip off some or all of the PSIP info to inject their own mapping data, tho I have now clue if they use PSIP or a cable data stream.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Earl Bonovich]

As I understand it (primarily from the experts over in the "Local Reception" forum at AVSForums)...

The PSIP is 100% inserted by the affiliate, totally in their control.
Most of them use a system that will blend in their guide data as well, but it is the equipment at the affiliate that actually "inserts" the PSIP information into the data stream.

 

[Stuart Sweet]

As I understand it (primarily from the experts over in the "Local Reception" forum at AVSForums)...

The PSIP is 100% inserted by the affiliate, totally in their control.
Most of them use a system that will blend in their guide data as well, but it is the equipment at the affiliate that actually "inserts" the PSIP information into the data stream.

Again, my source agrees with Earl. See the following:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=766918&postcount=225

 

[Milominderbinder2]

Here is the link that the OP quoted:

http://www.tribunemediaentertainment.com/products/tv_elec_psip.shtml

Silly Tribune also gives the name, phone and email to contact.

Here is what I do not understand.

Both TiVo and D* are both using TMS PSIP.

So why is it that on the same night for the same show at the same time on the same channel, D* so often get's the First Run/Repeat wrong and TiVo always gets it right?

Same database, same info? Right?

- Craig

 

[Herdfan]

The PSIP is 100% inserted by the affiliate, totally in their control.
Most of them use a system that will blend in their guide data as well,

And some don't.

When our FOX affiliate (11-1)went HD 4 days before the 2005 Superbowl, one of the minor things that was left undone was to notify Tribune that the DT feed was up and operating.

When the sister ABC station (8-1) went HD a couple of month later, all the guide data was there. So I could record OTA from 8-1, but not 11-1.

It literally took months of correspondence with the station to get it corrected. As I tried to explain to the station engineer what was missing, he explained they could not provide all that data as someone had to manually type in the guide data for the PSIP data stream. He said all the data could not be provided since it would be too labor intensive.

It took me sending them pictures of full guide data for 8-1 and no guide data for 11-1 for them to understand there was a problem.

So when the station engineer has no clue how D* gets guide data there is a problem. But accepting the problem was only the beginning. The affiliate had no clue as to how to get the guide data to Tribune. Finally the head of marketing got in touch with someone at Tribune and the problem was fixed within a day.

And both of these are Sinclair affiliates. Say what you want about SBG, but a company that big should know how to get guide data to Tribune, but they didn't.

 

[Stuart Sweet]

Craig - at that point, I would expect Tribune to say, it's not their data, it's what Tivo or D* does with it. There are two issues here. One is clearly identifying first runs vs. repeats. The other is failing to provide accurate guide data at all, or providing inaccurate PSIP mapping.

 

[Ron Barry]

Finding this thread very interesting... Not a HR20 user do have experience from how Dish does the OTA thing and am rather curious..

Earl, you say that you don't think the HR20 uses PSIP information. How does the mapping then occur if PSIP is not used. PSIP provideds this information and I know Dish uses it to map the guide information provided through Dish to the OTA channel provided. Dish however does not use the Programming information provided for a number of reasons. My guess the main one would be inconsistency across the country.

One of the issues that are seen a lot on our side if the fence is PSIP mapping mis-configurations that result in a channel not coming in or guide information not being provided.

The other one that crops up is users that happen to be in two DMAs (Edge use case types). This at times has resulted in the Guide information not showing up on the receiver.

Just some random thoughts from my experiences with this type of system...