Good luck, with what ever choice you make...
Good by D* and all you great people
Well I waited for a long time for this box to come out. After being a A list customer, what ever that b.s. means. I talked to custmer service every month about when this would be avalible. They didn,t know. You would think that A list (what ever that is) ,custmers would be notified, but no. Found box at cc. But after reading these postsfor over a month the box will be returned monday (never activated) to some lucky or unlucky person waiting for this sold out box. Its not the issues, D* will fix it at some time. The Idea that I have to spend$299 & 2YR comitmentfor a box that may work or may not. We are not talking about 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 problems is unthinkable. All I can think about is the dumb cell phone contracts that we get stuck in only to have the person smile at you when you have a real problem and say well you have to buy your contract out or put up with this.I,m Luckey in away because I have cable or verizonfioos to choose from. I will miss you all . But unles some one here or customer service when I cancel can convince me to stay. this will be my farewell. I will now have to give the wife my attention instead or reading your posts and get rid of the pool boy , even though we don,t have apool!!!!!:hurah:
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Thanks Earl I wish there was some assurance that this would be fixed soon but it don,t look that way?
I like to think that it will be...soprano_777 said:Thanks Earl I wish there was some assurance that this would be fixed soon but it don,t look that way?
I know the development teams are busting their humps to get this thing fixed... for everyone.
They want to get past this bug fixing stuff, and get back to work on new features for the unit... and resume on some of the other future projects DirecTV wants (like the HMC, the PC Tuner Card, DirecTV2Go, ect)
Each release things get better...
Hopefully over the next few releases (since I know OTA is not in the next one, so there will be another soon after it)... the HR20 makes significants strides.
Not all the problems are because of the HR20...
There are a few others pieces to the puzzle that are also being worked on at the same time...
So do I see the HR20 being a stable platform... yes.
Do I see the end of posts that there are problems... no, that will never happen.
The development teams should have had the HR20 working before letting people buy it. What a concept - let's sell it and have the first adopters be the alpha testers - and it's better than free, the first adopters will pay for it! That's a lot better financially for DirecTV than paying a third-rate third-world country's engineers to do the testing. Bust.
But it is working...junebug said:The development teams should have had the HR20 working before letting people buy it. What a concept - let's sell it and have the first adopters be the alpha testers - and it's better than free, the first adopters will pay for it! That's a lot better financially for DirecTV than paying a third-rate third-world country's engineers to do the testing. Bust.
And works well for a lot of people... Some since day one.
However, there are issues with it... and no matter how long you would have kept it in the lab... tested it.. ect... it would have had issues when released.
How long should that have kept it in the lab?
If they sat on it longer... you would have heard the complaints... "Where is it? Why is it delayed again? We where supposed to have it last year... ect"
until it reliably scheduled recordings, and reliably played them back, without crashing.Earl Bonovich said:How long should that have kept it in the lab?
For a lot of people it does not and in your own posts you say "I know the development teams are busting their humps to get this thing fixed", and this is based on your direct contacts with D*, so they know they have problems with the software, and while the bugs may not have presented to all users, they are there, D* knows it, and they are trying to develop software fixes to address them.Earl Bonovich said:But it is working...
And works well for a lot of people... Some since day one.
However, there are issues with it... and no matter how long you would have kept it in the lab... tested it.. ect... it would have had issues when released.
How long should that have kept it in the lab?
As far as how long it should of been kept in the lab, it is not a question of time, it is a question of quality. You keep the product in the lab until you can develop the test cases to ensure it is stable for your customers and once you decide to release it you also need to be upfront with your known bugs and you communicate to your support staff about those issues, so they can set expectations with your customers.
Okay... so then they released it when they should have.matto said:until it reliably scheduled recordings, and reliably played them back, without crashing.
As the units I have... do just that.
The units others have... do just that
And if the criteria is... 100% of the units, for 100% of the combinations, for 100% of the users... No DVR would be out in the market... not TiVo.. not UTV.. not cable-co's... none...
lack of an effective testing methodology doesn't mean your product works.
it means your testing sucks.
it means your testing sucks.
Yes... based on my contacts at DirecTV....btmoore said:For a lot of people it does not and in your own posts you say "I know the development teams are busting their humps to get this thing fixed", and this is based on your direct contacts with D*, so they know they have problems with the software, and while the bugs may not have presented to all users, they are there, D* knows it, and they are trying to develop software fixes to address them.
As far as how long it should of been kept in the lab, it is not a question of time, it is a question of quality. You keep the product in the lab until you can develop the test cases to ensure it is stable for your customers and once you decide to release it you also need to be upfront with your known bugs and you communicate to your support staff about those issues, so they can set expectations with your customers.
Yes... they know there are issues with the system... and they really don't deny it either.... and yes... shouldn't they be trying to fix it?
So.... keep it in a lab, trying to identify test cases that cover ALL scenerios and combinations of things... They had test cases, but obviously they didn't cover every combination... all I hope is that they learn from those, to develope even better automated test cases... so that when new versions are ready to be tested... you have even a better test case set.
But then again... the unit is already out there, and we can't change the past...
So all we can hope for is that the teams really are working on the fixes...
That they are learning from the past... and improving what they do.
If not... then well... time to pack it up and go to a different provider.
It also doesn't mean the unit is a POS... it just means that you didn't account for the thousands of thousands of possibilities...matto said:lack of an effective testing methodology doesn't mean your product works.
it means your testing sucks.
And with that... I am done.
The unit is what it is.
The unit was release when it was, and in the state it was.
Can't change it... Use it as your basis to make your decision of what you are going to do...
Now come on Earl, you cant honestly believe what you are writing, can you? This box has serious issues, that even you have said that D* is actively working to fix. I am not saying that your experience or even others is one of a lower rate of problems, but there is a lot of evidence that there are a lot of problems. These problems are far worse than any other STB I have owned and granted, my experience with DVRs is limited to the SD DTiVos for about 5 years which is where I developed my expectations about the core functionality in a DVR, and my expectations for how software is suppose to work is based on being a computer scientist and an executive in the high tech industry and management consulting fields. So I think I have rather well established foundation for knowing what a solid product is. We are not talking about the box being TiVo like, we are talking about the box making recordings 99.999% of the time and not locking up. It you cant get that working you should not release the product.Earl Bonovich said:Okay... so then they released it when they should have.
As the units I have... do just that.
The units others have... do just that
And if the criteria is... 100% of the units, for 100% of the combinations, for 100% of the users... No DVR would be out in the market... not TiVo.. not UTV.. not cable-co's... none...
Earl, please, take my word for it. I work at a company where software is our only product. We sell software to Fortune 1 companies, telcos, cable ISPs. My job is software release engineering and test automation.Earl Bonovich said:It also doesn't mean the unit is a POS... it just means that you didn't account for the thousands of thousands of possibilities...
I literally do this for a living. Please understand that when I make a comment like my last one, I am not speaking off the cuff, I am speaking as a professional, about an issue where I am paid handsomely to know what I am talking about.
Your repeated "never 100% perfect" argument is a red herring, and both of us know it. The goal before releasing a product is not 100% perfection. It is to ensure that there are little or no customer impacting bugs which affect the basic functionality of the product.
If I didn't believe it... I wouldn't write it..btmoore said:Now come on Earl, you cant honestly believe what you are writing, can you? This box has serious issues, that even you have said that D* is actively working to fix. I am not saying that your experience or even others is one of a lower rate of problems, but there is a lot of evidence that there are a lot of problems. These problems are far worse than any other STB I have owned and granted, my experience with DVRs is limited to the SD DTiVos for about 5 years which is where I developed my expectations about the core functionality in a DVR, and my expectations for how software is suppose to work is based on being a computer scientist and an executive in the high tech industry and management consulting fields. So I think I have rather well established foundation for knowing what a solid product is. We are not talking about the box being TiVo like, we are talking about the box making recordings 99.999% of the time and not locking up. It you cant get that working you should not release the product.
This unit is HOW old? 3 months? since public release...
Do your really think they would NOT have been working on it at this point?
Why is it so shocking that they are working on it?
I would hope that they are working on it...
How many versions are the of the TiVo software?
They didn't get it right, perfectly right out of the box.
I haven't seen ANY DVR that was perfect out the door... not one, in the 6 years I have been around DVR's.
I can understand that... and appriciate that..matto said:Earl, please, take my word for it. I work at a company where software is our only product. We sell software to Fortune 1 companies, telcos, cable ISPs. My job is software release engineering and test automation.
I literally do this for a living. Please understand that when I make a comment like my last one, I am not speaking off the cuff, I am speaking as a professional, about an issue where I am paid handsomely to know what I am talking about.
Your repeated "never 100% perfect" argument is a red herring, and both of us know it. The goal before releasing a product is not 100% perfection. It is to ensure that there are little or no customer impacting bugs which affect the basic functionality of the product.
DirecTV chose to release the product...... and really that is the end of the story... They released it.
I am not here to debate DirecTV software development practices, vs your companies software development practices...
And honestly... I am at the point that I really don't care any more of what happened.... Doesn't change the fact of what the HR20 is today... and what is actively going on today. And right now... that is all I am intrested in..
I don't understand why you keep going back to 100% or Perfect out the door. No one is saying that, but what I am saying is it needs to be stable, not lockup or crash and it needs to accurately record 99.999 percent of the time those are not outrageous expectations for a DVR product in the year 2006. The Partial but and unwatchable bugs are a big problem with core functionality not minor issues, because recording and watching the box is why we bought it. It would it be normal for some bug corner cases to be out there that might cause a recording to fail or cause rare lockup, or maybe some kind of mistake like the Dolby having to be turned off to turn on is not that big of a deal. The expectation for a DVR is that it will record and not crash, and this box can not be trusted to do the basic functionality is is supose to support, at lease on this version of the software. We are 6 years later from when the TiVo and other DVRs were released, the functionality is well understood, I have a hard time understanding how this product could be released with so many core functionality bugs. It does not need to be perfect, nothing is perfect, all software and systems have bugs, but it does need to be a lot better than what we now have.Earl Bonovich said:If I didn't believe it... I wouldn't write it..
This unit is HOW old? 3 months? since public release...
Do your really think they would NOT have been working on it at this point?
Why is it so shocking that they are working on it?
I would hope that they are working on it...
How many versions are the of the TiVo software?
They didn't get it right, perfectly right out of the box.
I haven't seen ANY DVR that was perfect out the door... not one, in the 6 years I have been around DVR's.
I'm with Earl on this one. This is a very complicated machine that is dealing with a whole new way of broadcasting via satellite. (Mpeg-4)
My third HR20 has been excellent so far. It has been more stable than my Samsung TS-360 HD box ever was that I had before it. My first 2 HR20's I honestly believe had hardware issues. 1st one had a dead tuner, 2nd one lasted about 90mins, then just completely died, like it's switch was turned off.
Now I can't argue that I never should have gotten 2 boxes in a row with hardware problems. That's just a quality control problem that has hopefully been fixed by the supplier.
And I will say, that if this forum weren't around I'd probably have given up on D* by now.....and went back to E*:nono2:
My third HR20 has been excellent so far. It has been more stable than my Samsung TS-360 HD box ever was that I had before it. My first 2 HR20's I honestly believe had hardware issues. 1st one had a dead tuner, 2nd one lasted about 90mins, then just completely died, like it's switch was turned off.
Now I can't argue that I never should have gotten 2 boxes in a row with hardware problems. That's just a quality control problem that has hopefully been fixed by the supplier.
And I will say, that if this forum weren't around I'd probably have given up on D* by now.....and went back to E*:nono2:
Alright. I may be one of the lucky ones because I'd say 90-98% of my recordings are successful as of now. The update before this last one was really the only one that gave me serious issues. Since then just one frozen recording and one reset because a channel was telling me I didn't subscribe. The reset fixed it. But in all fairness to DTV they have bent over backwards to keep me happy.
First off I was one of the first hr20 owners in the LA market, coincidece because it was the time of my firts hdtv purchase. I didn't even know about the wait or furor over the box. I was content with my sd tivo box.
When I ordered it was still $399. As an A list customer I balked at the price. They told me 3 payments of $133 plus 19.95 s&h but they'd waive the first payment, making it $266. Fine I said, but since I now need superfan, throw it in for free. They did.
A few weeks later I had the NFL recording cancelled of a game where I was on the sidelines, very upset not to see myself in HD. Wrote an email to Customer Service and they admitted problems and gave me a $250 instant credit. Now I paid $16 plus s&h. plus free superfan.
Then I had some issues after that last update and they gave me a $20 a month credit for six months, virtually paying me to use the hr20.
Then I lost my distant networks because of a dtv gaffe and they added a 10 month $5 credit to start at the end of the 6 months credit.
This is a company that I will stick with. In 10 years of being a top tier customer I have only complained one other time and was treated just as well.
That being said, I'd like to opt out of the next update until I know my unit will work as well as it is now.
Peace.
First off I was one of the first hr20 owners in the LA market, coincidece because it was the time of my firts hdtv purchase. I didn't even know about the wait or furor over the box. I was content with my sd tivo box.
When I ordered it was still $399. As an A list customer I balked at the price. They told me 3 payments of $133 plus 19.95 s&h but they'd waive the first payment, making it $266. Fine I said, but since I now need superfan, throw it in for free. They did.
A few weeks later I had the NFL recording cancelled of a game where I was on the sidelines, very upset not to see myself in HD. Wrote an email to Customer Service and they admitted problems and gave me a $250 instant credit. Now I paid $16 plus s&h. plus free superfan.
Then I had some issues after that last update and they gave me a $20 a month credit for six months, virtually paying me to use the hr20.
Then I lost my distant networks because of a dtv gaffe and they added a 10 month $5 credit to start at the end of the 6 months credit.
This is a company that I will stick with. In 10 years of being a top tier customer I have only complained one other time and was treated just as well.
That being said, I'd like to opt out of the next update until I know my unit will work as well as it is now.
Peace.
I apologize... my comments are not to hammer on 100% perfection out of the box. You are having problems are having problems... I am not in one way shape of form trying to discredit that in anyway.btmoore said:I don't understand why you keep going back to 100% or Perfect out the door. No one is saying that, but what I am saying is it needs to be stable, not lockup or crash and it needs to accurately record 99.999 percent of the time those are not outrageous expectations for a DVR product in the year 2006. The Partial but and unwatchable bugs are a big problem with core functionality not minor issues, because recording and watching the box is why we bought it. Would it be normal for some bug corner cases to be out there that might cause a recording to fail or cause rare lockup, or maybe some kind of mistake like the Dolby having to be turned off to turn on is not that big of a deal. The expectation for a DVR is that it will record and not crash, and this box can not be trusted to do the basic functionality is is supose to support, at lease on this version of the software. We are 6 years later from when the TiVo and other DVRs were released, the functionality is well understood, I have a hard time understanding how this product could be released with so many core functionality bugs. It does not need to be perfect, nothing is perfect, all software and systems have bugs, but it does need to be a lot better than what we now have.
But... there are people like myself... that haven't had any significant issues, or issues of any type (I have had a few)...... So what are they (and myself) to think... So should all those people that don't have any issues... pack up the unit and send it back?
And with that... I am done for the night... I'll see you all tomorrow.
One last note...
Please... these topics can go south really fast , really quickly.
Everyone's point is valid... and the only wrong thing... is to say anyone's point is invalid.
later
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