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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone notice after switching from the HR10 to the Hr20 that the picture is grainy? We are pretty picky and noticed it right away. I called tier 2 tech support and they think it's either the converter boxes that hook up the sat 1 and 2 cable, maybe they are bad, or causing interference, or an issue with the hdmi cable conflicting with the new box. They apparently are working on a fix for that. Anyway, we are not happy at all and I think I will get my hr10 and hook it up hdmi to the other input on the plasma so we can see it side by side when the tech comes.
My tv is:
55hdt52 Hitachi plasma.

The way I would describe the problem is:
on SD channels the picture is grainy blurry and hard to make out words
on high def channels the picture is clear, but grainy at times (like in darkness) and not the sharpness and detail I am used to with the HR10, for example... a persons face, I used to be able to see every wrinkle and crease and each strand of hair, now it looks like a soft focus filter has been applied and I can still see some sharp detail, but most is lost.

Please help as I am ready to put this one upstairs with my toshiba crt (SD) and bring the HR10 back down here, what a waste that would be... No high def locals for me... :(
 

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Lifetime Achiever
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1) The B-Band converters won't have any effect on it... as they don't effect Picture Quality... they shift the signal to a different frequency range.

I would have to say on my Pio Plasma, the PQ was the opposite experience (compared to my HR10)

What happens when you connect via Component?
Do you have things set to Native Resolution with the HR20? Or did you fix it to a specific resolution.
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I tried to set it to native and it was even blurrier.. Well the menus were blurry and it slowed everything down when turning channels. So I turned that off.
The strange thing is I am using all the exact same cables as the HR10, due to the fact that our custom built entertainment unit sits perfectly under our wall mounted plasma. All the hookups were already plugged into our monster clean power center and wired tied to the back of the unit, which makes it a major ordeal to change out cables from the Yamaha receiver on the other side. Bottom line is nothing has changed about our setup at all except adding this box and new slimline dish. We are using all the same cables (other than those boxes attached for the cables) We have no idea other than it might be a bad box. Who knows...

My hookup is as it was with the HR10:
Hdmi to reciever than to Plasma
Optical is also being used (to receiver) as a back up for cut outs on dvr..
s-video is hooked up along with r,w,y rca cables but only direct to dvd recorder
both satalites are hooked up with the new converter boxes..

Anyway there is no difference other than those new converter boxes and the new dish and box... please help...:nono2:
 

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jwren said:
Anyone notice after switching from the HR10 to the Hr20 that the picture is grainy? We are pretty picky and noticed it right away. I called tier 2 tech support and they think it's either the converter boxes that hook up the sat 1 and 2 cable, maybe they are bad, or causing interference, or an issue with the hdmi cable conflicting with the new box. They apparently are working on a fix for that. Anyway, we are not happy at all and I think I will get my hr10 and hook it up hdmi to the other input on the plasma so we can see it side by side when the tech comes.
My tv is:
55hdt52 Hitachi plasma.

The way I would describe the problem is:
on SD channels the picture is grainy blurry and hard to make out words
on high def channels the picture is clear, but grainy at times (like in darkness) and not the sharpness and detail I am used to with the HR10, for example... a persons face, I used to be able to see every wrinkle and crease and each strand of hair, now it looks like a soft focus filter has been applied and I can still see some sharp detail, but most is lost.

Please help as I am ready to put this one upstairs with my toshiba crt (SD) and bring the HR10 back down here, what a waste that would be... No high def locals for me... :(
Don't be afraid to calibrate your TV to the HR20.

Pay special attention to Sharpness (set it to near 0), and of course Contrast and the other normal user settings. Each device connected to the TV needs to be calibrated to the TV. There is no reason to assume the HR10 and HR20 would not require separate settings. Optimize the settings for the HR20 and then see if if you still think it's grainey.

Mine looks very good on my 720P Sammy, no graininess at all.
 

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Legend
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Sounds like either native is on, or the wrong resolutions are enabled. A screen-shot would be helpful, though.

It's hard to chalk it up to one thing or another though because image quality is highly subjective without making comparisons in a controlled environment.

For instance, I've done several A-B tests (this is side-by-side with the same 2 displays hooked up watching the same thing at the same time). The only discernible differences seem to be the fact that the HD-Tivo shows a more visible CUE bug on SD material- the HR20's is really hard to see. The other is that the HR20 seems to have less overscan then the HR10-250. I base this on the fact that the CC code is highly visible on almost every FOX-HD Mpeg4 feed I've seen. I know this is partly Fox's fault because you can see on it on the H20 as well- it's faintly visible on both the Mpeg4 version and the OTA version. However, on the HR20 it's very distinguished and much easier to see. When I show co-workers the image every single one of them comments at the "gibberish" at the top of the screen. The HR20 appears to show 10+ horiz. lines of resolution more than the H20. This could be due to many different factors though- it could be due to heavy pixel cropping on the bottom of the image, for instance.

Forget the difference in image quality between the HR10-250 and the HR20 though- the differences in image quality between the H20 and HR20 (at least to me) stick out like a sore thumb! But that's another thread altogether.
 

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Legend
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Im noticing the grain too. I have a sony wega (tube) & Im hooked up to the new SLIMELINE 5 lnb. Im using both component and hdmi - dvi
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
506PIR said:
Im noticing the grain too. I have a sony wega (tube) & Im hooked up to the new SLIMELINE 5 lnb. Im using both component and hdmi - dvi
Is it possible it's the dish?
Direct tv is sending Mastec back out here tomorrow to see the problem, so I will see what they say, They want us to compare the two side by side, I will use my input 2 for the HR10 and input 1 for the HR20 and we will flip back and forth to see. Hopefully this will shed some light on it...:eek2:
 

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I never had the HR10 before getting an HR20, so maybe that'll qualify my comments, but I have not have any PQ problems with the HR20. I have it hooked up to my 50" Pani Plasma via components (decided to stay away from any HDMI troubles for now), and have to say even with all the complaints I've heard about D* hi-def PQ, I have been impressed . . . as have all my friends that have come to check it out.

I am picky about PQ as well, and was real impressed how much better SD looked on the plasma (vs. my Tivo-based R-10), and one comment I've made was how with the HD channels, I can even get much closer (than the ~10' I normally would sit to watch TV) without seeing any degradation in image (it's very sharp/clear).

While I may not be as technically schooled as some, I think calibrating my set (even through the user menu options) has made a HUGE difference . . . I did it when I first got the HR20 and have been very satisfied.
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
gymj22 said:
I never had the HR10 before getting an HR20, so maybe that'll qualify my comments, but I have not have any PQ problems with the HR20. I have it hooked up to my 50" Pani Plasma via components (decided to stay away from any HDMI troubles for now), and have to say even with all the complaints I've heard about D* hi-def PQ, I have been impressed . . . as have all my friends that have come to check it out.

I am picky about PQ as well, and was real impressed how much better SD looked on the plasma (vs. my Tivo-based R-10), and one comment I've made was how with the HD channels, I can even get much closer (than the ~10' I normally would sit to watch TV) without seeing any degradation in image (it's very sharp/clear).

While I may not be as technically schooled as some, I think calibrating my set (even through the user menu options) has made a HUGE difference . . . I did it when I first got the HR20 and have been very satisfied.
ok so how do you go about calibrating your set? What exactly do you mean by that?
 

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I got a new 32" Samsung LCD and have great PQ on most HD feeds. Honestly, I think PQ depends A LOT on the broadcaster & time of day. Last night, My Name Is Earl & The Office (local Mpeg-4) were near perfect and crystal clear. Then, on ESPN-HD college game, I saw slight graininess. Yet, last Saturday, ESPN-HD was near perfect.
 

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Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07
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jwren said:
ok so how do you go about calibrating your set? What exactly do you mean by that?
Calibrating your HDTV is a must and you need to do it on every input.

You can self calibrate with various DVD calibration discs such as Avia of Video Essentials.

A professional ISF calibration can be done but will run $300-$500 most likely.
 

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bonscott87 said:
Calibrating your HDTV is a must and you need to do it on every input.

You can self calibrate with various DVD calibration discs such as Avia of Video Essentials.

A professional ISF calibration can be done but will run $300-$500 most likely.
I've heard professional ISF calibration is the ultimate thing to have done for great results, but I have only used basic test patterns, myself, and made adjustments to my user menus (not even into service menus). I borrowed an Avia disc from a friend; I've used the THX optimizer on THX certified DVDs, and perhaps a good enough place to start as any with the HR20 is to record the test pattern off of HDNet (you should be able to find more info and how to use it by searching these forums - I did.) I believe HDNet has not shown the test pattern lately, but will begin running it again sometime in the next week or two.

I also found a lot of good info off of the AVS forum (avsforum.com). There is a lot of good info on calibrating your set. In fact, I have seen some people have even posted there user settings (post-calibration - either by them or someone else) which is a real good place to start. I am planning on getting the new Digital Video Essentials-HDTV edition which comes out this month.

I'm sold on the process - my dad has a 50" Sony LCD projection, and he though he had a new TV after I went through and changed several of his settings. It really can make a big difference - and not just "kind of, sort of, I think . . . maybe."
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
the more I look......ya know I just don't think it's about calibration...due to the fact that right now the local hdtv channel I am watching looks awesome...maybe it's just the broadcast or maybe the SD channels are just not as good on this box... I don't know..I am totally lost here...
 

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jwren said:
the more I look......ya know I just don't think it's about calibration...due to the fact that right now the local hdtv channel I am watching looks awesome...maybe it's just the broadcast or maybe the SD channels are just not as good on this box... I don't know..I am totally lost here...
SD looks pretty sickly on ANY large screen. It's often worse via satellite than OTA, but both are pretty poor, although most complain of "blurriness" and not grain. It's probably best to do all your evaluation with HD sources (or calibration disks).

Don't minimize calibration (and I don't mean paid calibration....way too much money for my tastes). You have no idea how good your TV can look when the inputs are more properly adjusted, compared to "out of the box" settings. The AVIA and Video Essentials dvd's are very good for this purpose.

User calibration is a MUST DO for the best PQ and it is dirt cheap (around 20 bucks or so for the dvd). The differences are NOT subtle...you will see a significant and obvious improvement....unless you were blind dumb lucky out of the box...which is pretty rare.
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
hasan said:
SD looks pretty sickly on ANY large screen. It's often worse via satellite than OTA, but both are pretty poor, although most complain of "blurriness" and not grain. It's probably best to do all your evaluation with HD sources (or calibration disks).

Don't minimize calibration (and I don't mean paid calibration....way too much money for my tastes). You have no idea how good your TV can look when the inputs are more properly adjusted, compared to "out of the box" settings. The AVIA and Video Essentials dvd's are very good for this purpose.

User calibration is a MUST DO for the best PQ and it is dirt cheap (around 20 bucks or so for the dvd). The differences are NOT subtle...you will see a significant and obvious improvement....unless you were blind dumb lucky out of the box...which is pretty rare.
thanks, well they just left and the guy said he can't do anything and thought maybe it was this box and it's hdmi and said I should try component, but I was always told that's not digital, he claims it is. I am so confused now...also where do I get that calibration disk, and how do I do it with the thx optimizer, I have one of those.
 

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jwren said:
thanks, well they just left and the guy said he can't do anything and thought maybe it was this box and it's hdmi and said I should try component, but I was always told that's not digital, he claims it is. I am so confused now...also where do I get that calibration disk, and how do I do it with the thx optimizer, I have one of those.
Component isn't digital, but digital isn't everything....all D* channels are digital, and look how bad the SD channels are. Component is excellent.

That aside...just google : Avia and you'll find it. Google "Digital Video Essentials" and you'll find it. THX I don't have, but I know people have done calibration with it. It must be in the documentation somewhere (even on the dvd itself).
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
hasan said:
Component isn't digital, but digital isn't everything....all D* channels are digital, and look how bad the SD channels are. Component is excellent.

That aside...just google : Avia and you'll find it. Google "Digital Video Essentials" and you'll find it. THX I don't have, but I know people have done calibration with it. It must be in the documentation somewhere (even on the dvd itself).
Thanks I just did and found it, I also tried to do it with my thx calibration tool and I was right on. So who knows. Anyway I will try the component but I have a feeling it will not make a difference. I don't want to loose quality on my high def signal either, so I am not sure about using component.
 

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My complaint is, calibrating with a DVD won't calibrate the input that the HR20 is on.

If you have an upconverting DVD player, then you could at least go in on HDMI, but it still might need tweaking for the HR20.

I hope to catch the HDNet calibration screen when it starts back up. Has that happened yet?
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
paulman182 said:
My complaint is, calibrating with a DVD won't calibrate the input that the HR20 is on.

If you have an upconverting DVD player, then you could at least go in on HDMI, but it still might need tweaking for the HR20.

I hope to catch the HDNet calibration screen when it starts back up. Has that happened yet?
I actually have two upconverting dvd players (one is a recorder, one a 400 disk changer) we also tried to swap the hdmi from the dvd recorder which hooks directly to the plasma, instead of going through the yamaha receiver and it made no difference, the picture was just as bad.

and I don't see how calibrating color will help blurriness.
 

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Godfather
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I have a 65" Toshiba RPTV and there is no doubt for my situation that the HR20 picture is not as clear as the HR10 (at least for the HD channels).

I have both the HR20 & HR10 connected to my TV and can compare the same picture from both receivers (comparing the HD HBO channel and HDnet).

I had the HR10 connected via HDMI and the HR20 via component and the HR10 picture was more crisper. I tried adjusting the TV picture controls but no matter what I did I could not get the HR20 to be quite as "crisp" as the HR10.

I then switched the connections (HR10 via component and HR20 via HDMI) and it was about the same results - the HR10 just had a more "crisp" picture.

Now, the difference was not "huge" but the fact that the HR20 has a more "blurry" picture is disappointing.
 
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