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They make a water boring nozzle (cheap) that attaches to the end of a pvc pipe with another attachment to a garden hose. This allows you to place a grey pvc conduit under a driveway quite easily.
 

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Legend
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Here's my two cents:

(1) You never want to run a ground wire through the house. The whole idea is to keep the discharge outside the house.

(2) Grounding will not protect against a direct lightning strike!
However, it may prevent the strike from happening in the first place.

(3) The main two reasons for grounding:
-Dissipate surges from nearby lightning strikes
-Prevent ground loops, a major source of hum in home theaters

(4) Ideally you want the antenna grounded to the house ground.

In your case you may have to compromise.
Here's a suggestion:
Install an 8' 5/8" diameter ground rod near your antenna and ground it.

Check your systems operation for ground loop hum. If no hum stop, or, tie the two ground rods together with 6 gauge bare copper wire.

You can't have too much lightning protection!
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Mike500 said:
They make a water boring nozzle (cheap) that attaches to the end of a pvc pipe with another attachment to a garden hose. This allows you to place a grey pvc conduit under a driveway quite easily.
If that is the case, the best option is clearly to use a grounding rod (i'll pound it in right near the dish) and then run pvc conduit around the house and under the driveway with 6awg straight to the main grounding rod. I have to assume that the absolute best way to run this 6awg copper connector is underground and PVC protected. I'll start researching this.

The system runs beautifuly right now, in the end I think my main concern is that if something were to go wrong or whatever and there were a miraculous strike and a fire, it wouldn't be covered by my insurance if it was a job that was improperly done (not to code) in the first place. I've never had to deal with my homeowners insurance and I pray I never have to!
 

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As a Master Electrician, I believe that what you said would the best option.

Grounding is cheap. A lot of it is done wrong. I can attest to that. Just make sure that you use the correct copper split bolts and direct burial grounding bronze connectors. On jobs, I generally use one on each cable. On my own, I use two. Also, use a 5/8" copper coated UL listed rod. The one that you currently have appears to be galvanized. Using two grounding rods bonded by #6 copper and placed more than 8 feet apart makes your system comply with all of the latest NEC rules, as well with all other codes.

You cannot overdo safety.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Mike500 said:
As a Master Electrician, I believe that what you said would the best option.

Grounding is cheap. A lot of it is done wrong. I can attest to that. Just make sure that you use the correct copper split bolts and direct burial grounding bronze connectors. On jobs, I generally use one on each cable. On my own, I use two. Also, use a 5/8" copper coated UL listed rod. The one that you currently have appears to be galvanized. Using two grounding rods bonded by #6 copper and placed more than 8 feet apart makes your system comply with all of the latest NEC rules, as well with all other codes.

You cannot overdo safety.
I've decided on this method then. I don't care if I have to put down a good couple hundred bucks on a spool of cable, pvc, connectors, etc, if it's done right. Even if I stop using satellite service i'll likely still likely do a FTA setup so I want it done well permanently. I did more research on routing out a hole under the driveway, and it's no big deal at all - seems like a lot of work but with the right tools it will be no problem. I suppose in the end both of my neigbors on each side are electricians, I don't know them well but this might be time to go say hi and see if they wouldn't mind giving me a once over to see if i've got it right :p

The NEC really seems like a PITA, but I suppose it's there for saftey. I'll post pics and progress of my work next week when I get started! My first step will likely be working out how to get the pvc under the driveway, after I find out what type of PVC is allowable.
 

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kay said:
The collar of the dish is resecured with two 1/2" thick 4" long bolts holding it together via holes drilled in the mounting pole. Metal contacts metal everywhere, the install itself is sound.
Structural steel is a relatively poor conductor (especially if it is immersed in concrete; an excellent insulator).

All grounds must go directly from what they are grounding to the "bonding point". Code does not allow grounding something to another device that is grounded. Each device must have its own ground wire that runs all the way to the bonding point.
 

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As I recall, all of the editions of the code that I have read only applied to the masts of antennas attached to buildings, but you still have to ground the coax outer conductor as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building.
 

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kay said:
Only other question, does #6 copper bonding mean 6AWG copper wire? That's the impression I got...
Yes, that's exactly what it means.

kay said:
I've decided on this method then. I don't care if I have to put down a good couple hundred bucks on a spool of cable, pvc, connectors, etc, if it's done right. Even if I stop using satellite service i'll likely still likely do a FTA setup so I want it done well permanently. So just to recap:

Dish -> Grounding Block -> 10AWG (or better) to grounding rod -> to a "direct burial grounding bronze connector?" -> to PVC pipe -> back out of the ground to the grounding rod by the electrical main.

I did more research on routing out a hole under the driveway, and it's no big deal at all - seems like a lot of work but with the right tools it will be no problem. I suppose in the end both of my neigbors on each side are electricians, I don't know them well but this might be time to go say hi and see if they wouldn't mind giving me a once over to see if i've got it right :p
The most important thing is that you have upgraded the grounding system for your home.

The current NEC specifies that one grounding rod is necessary, if the grounding resistance is 25 ohms or less. If not, a second rod spaced at least 8 feet apart pr more must be installed and bonded to the first with a #6 or better copper conductor. With the second bonded rod installed, the system automatically meets the NEC. Almost all electricians dispense with measuring grounding resistance and just install the second grounding rod bonded to the first. This is because the ground resistance meter, itself, cost nearly $2,000 to $3,000.
 

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harsh said:
Structural steel is a relatively poor conductor (especially if it is immersed in concrete; an excellent insulator).
A #10 copper conductor wrapped under a nut on one of the mounting bolts at the base of the dish to the UL listed direct burial connector is the way to go.

harsh said:
Each device must have its own ground wire that runs all the way to the bonding point.
A copper split bolt can be used to bond any grounding wire at any point along a grounding conduictor asnd still comply with the code. Code only requires that the main grounding wire from the main panel to the first grounding rod be in one continuous piece or be of pieces joined with a nonreversible means, such as crimping. #4 or #6 crimpers are very expensive. I know, since I have three sets of Thomas and Betts TBM5's, 6's and 8's. They sell for at least $1,000 a set NEW. That's why most electricians just run a continuous wire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Yeah i'm going to run a solid continuous wire from point A to B, i'll likely just get a 100ft spool of it (to have extra just in case) and run from rod to rod that way, and run from dish to grounding block, dish to rod with the extras. Might as well overdo it if i've got extra of the lower gauge stuff and use it for the short runs of 10awg.

I'm still trying to find specifics on what type of conduit and wire to use, but the conduit seems to be the electrical (dark grey stuff) that is rather expensive, and the wire as far as I can tell can be bare of sleeved, although I prefer the idea of sleeved. The burial depth tends to vary from what i've found via a few quick google searches, most seem to like 18 inches, which may be a bit difficult but certainly do-able.

Mike500 said:
The most important thing is that you have upgraded the grounding system for your home.
And I suppose that's a great thing! The electrical system in my home is probably less than adequate as it is! I mean it passed inspection and everything, but the old saying that "the code is the minimum" was really taken to heart (in a bad/cheap way) when this place was built!
 

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kay said:
Nope, PVC! :( Here are pics, these are on opposite ends of the house, which is around 50 feet long from one side to the other:

The dish wasn't close to secure with a single pole, and I couldn't put it any lower to help stabilize since it wouldn't clear the neighbors roof. With the legs cemented in the thing is rock solid! The traveling wire (can't remebmer the name) on one of the sets of RG6 grounds the dish to the grounding block right now. The old dish was about 7 feet above this and a few feet over, grounded improperly (to a lone grounding rod that I added since the installer grounded it to a PVC water faucet)


This (from what I can tell) is the main ground for the house. This is where I would ground it to if I can find a proper method to do so. About 10 feet up, around 50ish feet through the attic, and 8 feet back down to meet the grounding block from there. The pipe on the right goes immediately to the electric meter (which meets with the box on the inside of the living room - was originally the garage) and the wires to the left appear to be cable, phone, and something else (not sure what)
If i was you i would run the rg-6 and use that same gr blk @ the meter/service ground on the other side of the hm. = Rg-6 through the attic IS allot easier than all this driveway boring and Work. PLUS the cost of rg-6 and 6 " of green #10 is a heck of a lot cheaper than all the cpr wire/work. (= My #10 sun/oil resist gr wire went from $50 to over 100$ per 500 ft. Copper is UP!)

ALSO think about this.... > a strike happens near by.... your ground wire is 100ft long... Your shortest cble run is 25 ft....

hmmmmm. Least path of resistance or shortest path?:confused:
 

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kay said:
I'm still trying to find specifics on what type of conduit and wire to use, but the conduit seems to be the electrical (dark grey stuff) that is rather expensive, and the wire as far as I can tell can be bare of sleeved, although I prefer the idea of sleeved. The burial depth tends to vary from what i've found via a few quick google searches, most seem to like 18 inches, which may be a bit difficult but certainly do-able.
Grounding wire is different from power cable. There is no need for conduit, especially #6 when buried. You can use 1/2" PVC to run the cable under the concrete driveway, get the wire under and across, and leave it or pull it out, if you want. It doesn't matter. Burial depth of 6 inches is just fine. It's a ground wire. Earth contact enhances the ground.

And I suppose that's a great thing! The electrical system in my home is probably less than adequate as it is! I mean it passed inspection and everything said:
It passed inspection, because it was "grandfathered" to the date it was built. A structure built in 1920 with knob and tube wiring passes inspection and is allowed by the power company and is compliance with law, but would be totally inadequate by today's standards.
 

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gigahz said:
Saw someone say connect to "house ground".......DON'T DO IT.

Simple.

Shortest path possible to an 8' ground rod hammered in Mother Earth.
What code or regulatory authority is the basis of your comment?
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
gigahz said:
Saw someone say connect to "house ground".......DON'T DO IT.

Simple.

Shortest path possible to an 8' ground rod hammered in Mother Earth.
I've not seen anything that says you are right, every decent source of info says this is a bad thing and can introduce feedback problems into the electrical system via a ground loop. Can you give me any info as to why you would say this?

As of right now the plan is to drive an 8 foot grounding rod right into the dirt about 12 inches from the dish, and run a #6 copper wire from there all the way around the house to the main grounding rod for the house. Everything i've found says this is a good idea. Granted i'm not going to jump on this until tuesday, so i'm still looking for second and third opinions and such for the time being, but everything Mike500 has told me so far i've been able to find credible backup sources for :) I do worry about a 6 inch burial though, isn't there a huge chance someone digging even a single scoop with a shovel will cut the wire? I would imagine that the minimum requirement be much deeper?
 

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kay said:
I've not seen anything that says you are right, every decent source of info says this is a bad thing and can introduce feedback problems into the electrical system via a ground loop. Can you give me any info as to why you would say this?

As of right now the plan is to drive an 8 foot grounding rod right into the dirt about 12 inches from the dish, and run a #6 copper wire from there all the way around the house to the main grounding rod for the house. Everything i've found says this is a good idea. Granted i'm not going to jump on this until tuesday, so i'm still looking for second and third opinions and such for the time being, but everything Mike500 has told me so far i've been able to find credible backup sources for :) I do worry about a 6 inch burial though, isn't there a huge chance someone digging even a single scoop with a shovel will cut the wire? I would imagine that the minimum requirement be much deeper?
A #6 wire is a large conductor. The current NEC requires at least #6 to equalized the potential between two ground rods. For a 200 amp service panel, the panel ground conductor can be #8 or larger. But a #8 conductor, pursuant to the code, would required that it be enclosed in a conduit running from the meter or panel to the grounding rod. An electrician usually installs a #6 or #4, since it is durable enough, so that it is not requred to be in a conduit.

Hand digging with a shovel will not readily sever a #6 conductor. A backhoe or a trencher would. If you'd like, bury the wire close to walls or places where a backhoe or a trencher will not be likely used. It wouldn't hurt to bury it deeper, but, you might place some ACQ treated 1x3 boards above it to protect the wire.

Another way is to place a RED vinyl tape a couple of inches above the buried wire. RED is the International indicator of a house current service cable that is buried underneath. You can get this tape at an electrical supply house that sells electrical supplies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
SALVATION!!!!!

Turns out I was stupid, the interior pipes in my home ARE copper, and the water faucet located just around the side from where the dish is located IS copper! I thought they were PVC since the pipe from the street is PVC and the paint from the house being panted actually painted the copper inlet of the pipe white (so I was certain it was PVC) but a little light scraping revealed copper! I'm saved of this nightmare! And the last tech just so happened to leave me around 25 feet of green #10AWG ground wire. I'll be doing a proper grounding tomorrow to the faucet around 18 feet away :grin: :grin: :grin:
 

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BE aware Using the H20 pipes has specifics as well concerning NEC legality and "worthy-ness".

= Cold wtr pipe w/bonding (gr wire) to occur within 5 ft of entrance to structure.

glad you found "a savior" !... You were making me sweat thinking about what all you were going to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
D-Bamatech said:
BE aware Using the H20 pipes has specifics as well concerning NEC legality and "worthy-ness".

= Cold wtr pipe w/bonding (gr wire) to occur within 5 ft of entrance to structure.

glad you found "a savior" !... You were making me sweat thinking about what all you were going to do.
Yeah it's cool i'm going to ground it right to the fauce pipe which is within just an inch or so of the entrance to the house.
 
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