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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My HOA is trying to get me to remove my OTA antenna 4228 CM because a neighbor does not like the look of it. Well of course I do know of the FCC law saying I can have one- but it appears my 4228 is 39 1/2" in width, but the FCC says you have to have an antenna smaller than 39 3/7" (1 meter) in diameter- so it appears that I may not be in correspondence by a couple fractions of an inch.

Has anyone out there won against their HOA with this antenna- if you have, what course did you take to win?

I also have a smaller 4 bay - the CM 3021 that I COULD replace it with, but would rather keep the big one for more channel coverage/better reception and to piss off the neighbor who complained.

Your help would be appreciated- thanks:)
 

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shortstop11_jeff said:
My HOA is trying to get me to remove my OTA antenna 4228 CM because a neighbor does not like the look of it. Well of course I do know of the FCC law saying I can have one- but it appears my 4228 is 39 1/2" in width, but the FCC says you have to have an antenna smaller than 39 3/7" (1 meter) in diameter- so it appears that I may not be in correspondence by a couple fractions of an inch.

Has anyone out there won against their HOA with this antenna- if you have, what course did you take to win?

I also have a smaller 4 bay - the CM 3021 that I COULD replace it with, but would rather keep the big one for more channel coverage/better reception and to piss off the neighbor who complained.

Your help would be appreciated- thanks:)
That's BS. The one meter rule only applies to satellite dishes, not OTA antennas. See http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html You can put up any OTA antenna you want to.
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh sweet- then screw them- Now I am tempted to buy an even bigger one and drape Xmas lights on it for good measure- thanks for your help.
 

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shortstop11_jeff said:
My HOA is trying to get me to remove my OTA antenna 4228 CM because a neighbor does not like the look of it. Well of course I do know of the FCC law saying I can have one- but it appears my 4228 is 39 1/2" in width, but the FCC says you have to have an antenna smaller than 39 3/7" (1 meter) in diameter- so it appears that I may not be in correspondence by a couple fractions of an inch.

Has anyone out there won against their HOA with this antenna- if you have, what course did you take to win?

I also have a smaller 4 bay - the CM 3021 that I COULD replace it with, but would rather keep the big one for more channel coverage/better reception and to piss off the neighbor who complained.

Your help would be appreciated- thanks:)
You have a couple of things to consider. What is the HOA asking you to do? Take down the antenna entirely? Move it to a different location? HOAs or local governments can restrict placement of an antenna SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO RECEIVE A SIGNAL. IF the HOA is asking you to move it from the side of the house to the back of the house and you can still receive a signal in the back of the house, that is permissable. If on the other hand, the rear of the house installation would inhibit your line of sight and thereby degrade your signal, it is not permissable.

If I was in your shoes, I'd start by calling the HOA and try to climb the ladder and resolve it amicably. If they don't go for that, fax over the link Texasbrit provided, and highlight the appropriate areas, along with a cover letter explaining your position and the fact that you are within your rights according the the FCC. Nothing nasty, just outline your rights, just in case there's someone there who doesn't know the rules and is making the decisions.
 

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You make it, We break it
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Good advice. If you start a shouting match, they'll likely try to come after you about something else, and it will never end. The only possible local restriction you have in that law is a safety issue regarding masts that are more than 12 feet high. Review your options to comply, but remind them that if you have to move it, you may then require a mast up to 12 feet high to maintain your signal, which will defeat the whole purpose of their fruitless exercise ;)

Sharkie_Fan said:
You have a couple of things to consider. What is the HOA asking you to do? Take down the antenna entirely? Move it to a different location? HOAs or local governments can restrict placement of an antenna SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO RECEIVE A SIGNAL. IF the HOA is asking you to move it from the side of the house to the back of the house and you can still receive a signal in the back of the house, that is permissable. If on the other hand, the rear of the house installation would inhibit your line of sight and thereby degrade your signal, it is not permissable.

If I was in your shoes, I'd start by calling the HOA and try to climb the ladder and resolve it amicably. If they don't go for that, fax over the link Texasbrit provided, and highlight the appropriate areas, along with a cover letter explaining your position and the fact that you are within your rights according the the FCC. Nothing nasty, just outline your rights, just in case there's someone there who doesn't know the rules and is making the decisions.
 

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Sharkie_Fan said:
You have a couple of things to consider. What is the HOA asking you to do? Take down the antenna entirely? Move it to a different location? HOAs or local governments can restrict placement of an antenna SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO RECEIVE A SIGNAL. IF the HOA is asking you to move it from the side of the house to the back of the house and you can still receive a signal in the back of the house, that is permissable. If on the other hand, the rear of the house installation would inhibit your line of sight and thereby degrade your signal, it is not permissable.

If I was in your shoes, I'd start by calling the HOA and try to climb the ladder and resolve it amicably. If they don't go for that, fax over the link Texasbrit provided, and highlight the appropriate areas, along with a cover letter explaining your position and the fact that you are within your rights according the the FCC. Nothing nasty, just outline your rights, just in case there's someone there who doesn't know the rules and is making the decisions.
Have you considered an attic installation?

Many people on this board have had GREAT success and in some cases improved performance. Legislation exists that supports what you are trying to accomplish but at the same time you want to keep the angry ladies on the HOA happy. :)

How far are you from your local affiliate(s) broadcast towers?
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sharkie,
The person who is complaining wants me to move it or remove it because he sees it when he pulls out of his street below my townhouse.(we sit on top of a hill overlooking his house that surrounds the lake below) I have my antenna mounted on a pole at the back of my house behind my shed. I have to have it at the back of my house to be able to point to Wash DC which is to my south. I have had this bigger antenna up for 7 months and the older 3021 up for 3 years with no complaints.
I am thinking that the neighbor below either just moved in, or just got lassik surgery and can now see because it has been there for almost 4 years. Thanks for the suggestions Shark- I will try to remain calm and not nasty :)
 

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You make it, We break it
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More good advice. Comply if you can, up to the point where it starts to cost you money to maintain the signal you have now, then you can put your foot down. But try to comply if possible.

Radio Enginerd said:
Have you considered an attic installation?

Many people on this board have had GREAT success and in some cases improved performance. Legislation exists that supports what you are trying to accomplish but at the same time you want to keep the angry ladies on the HOA happy. :)

How far are you from your local affiliate(s) broadcast towers?
 

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Is the person complaining the new President of the HOA? I've seen this many times. One person gets a bug up their a** about one issue, and decides to run. And they always win because no one else wants the job! ;)

shortstop11_jeff said:
Sharkie,
The person who is complaining wants me to move it or remove it because he sees it when he pulls out of his street below my townhouse.(we sit on top of a hill overlooking his house that surrounds the lake below) I have my antenna mounted on a pole at the back of my house behind my shed. I have to have it at the back of my house to be able to point to Wash DC which is to my south. I have had this bigger antenna up for 7 months and the older 3021 up for 3 years with no complaints.
I am thinking that the neighbor below either just moved in, or just got lassik surgery and can now see because it has been there for almost 4 years. Thanks for the suggestions Shark- I will try to remain calm and not nasty :)
 

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AllStar
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As the first response indicates with the FCC link, your HOA can not prevent you from installing an antenna or dish (under a certain size - i.e. DTV / Dish) on any property you own. The only time the HOA can prevent you id it is installed on a Common Property (typical of townhomes).

I had an outdoor antenna before I got the HR20 as I could not get several stations that are broadcast from downtown Denver with an indoor (attic install).

I did contact my HOA before doing the install letting them know my intentions and why I needed to do an outdoor install (as I knew they would ask why I can't put it in the attic) - but didn't care what their response was as I knew I was putting it up regardless (I actually installed it before I received their approval).

If you have an alternate location for the install that won't hinder your ability to receive the stations you are getting now and would satisfy your neighbor, you might want to consider it. If not, then you should let you HOA know the need for the antenna to be installed in it's current location and if it is installed on YOUR property there is nothing legally they can do about it.

The only concern, that someone else had mentioned, is that if you start to get on the bad side with your HOA it may attract attention you don't want.

Your best course of action is to contact your HOA (if not already done so), make sure they are aware of the FCC link / regulation and explain to them why your antenna needs to be installed in it's current location and that you want to work with them to resolve the problem.

My antenna was a hack of an install as I have a single story house with a two story next to me (which happens to be in the line of sight to downtown Denver). So I actually mounted posts near the corner of my fence as that was the only location I could get a good enough signal. It was not the most attractive install and the antenna could be seen by my neighbors and behind my house - but I have cool neighbors so nobody cared.

The bottom line is your HOA can not prevent you from installing an antenna on property you own - but you should do your best to work with them to avoid them from hassling you in the future.

And tell your neighbor he should be paying attention to the road and looking for little kids that might run behind his car rather than being so concerned with your antenna. :)
 

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Government regulations are written by bureaucrats who don't understand the law and reviewed and approved by lawyers don't understand the subject being regulated, which means a lot of them are flawed. The worst flaw is an ambiguity.

In this case it appears that the HOA could regulate the size of the antenna as long as their limitations don't preclude you from picking up a satisfactory local signal with a proper installation. You have no right under the law to put up an antenna for distant stations.

In other words, as I read it they may be within their rights to tell you to take down the 4228, if you could receive your local stations with a smaller antenna. Others may have a different interpretation.

I would tread gently.
 

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Godfather
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TreeFarm said:
Government regulations are written by bureaucrats who don't understand the law and reviewed and approved by lawyers don't understand the subject being regulated, which means a lot of them are flawed. The worst flaw is an ambiguity.

In this case it appears that the HOA could regulate the size of the antenna as long as their limitations don't preclude you from picking up a satisfactory local signal with a proper installation. You have no right under the law to put up an antenna for distant stations.

In other words, as I read it they may be within their rights to tell you to take down the 4228, if you could receive your local stations with a smaller antenna. Others may have a different interpretation.

I would tread gently.
This is how I understand it as well, however the burden is on the HOA to prove this, which I doubt they have the knowledge, time or money to do.
 

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QUOTE:"Your best course of action is to contact your HOA (if not already done so), make sure they are aware of the FCC link / regulation and explain to them why your antenna needs to be installed in it's current location and that you want to work with them to resolve the problem"
That's good advice - certainly you should make sure that you send them something in writing also, particularly if they have sent you something. Since you have already done what some HOAs ask you to do - mounted the aantenna behind your house - doing anything more would probably be unreasonable.
And if your HOA has a written regulation that is negated by the FCC ruling, you might suggest they get it rewritten. An attorney with any HOA experience should have come across this issue before and can certainly write an HOA regulation that is compatible with the FCC ruling.
 

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wakajawaka said:
This is how I understand it as well, however the burden is on the HOA to prove this, which I doubt they have the knowledge, time or money to do.
HOAs usually have more resources than the homeowners who fight them. While the HOA would have only to prove the homeowner was violating the rule, the homeowner would have to prove the HOA rule was illegal, which would require an expensive expert witness. There would also be lawyers fees, court costs, etc., that the homeowner would have to bear. The HOA costs would be spread across all the homeowners, including the one with the antenna.

It's pretty much a no win situation.
 

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Godfather
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TreeFarm said:
HOAs usually have more resources than the homeowners who fight them. While the HOA would have only to prove the homeowner was violating the rule, the homeowner would have to prove the HOA rule was illegal, which would require an expensive expert witness. There would also be lawyers fees, court costs, etc., that the homeowner would have to bear. The HOA costs would be spread across all the homeowners, including the one with the antenna.

It's pretty much a no win situation.
No, the homeowner does not have to prove the HOA rule was illegal, the burden is solely on the HOA. So if they want to spend the money to show that the resident doesn't comply with OTARD they can. In the mean time the homeowner keeps the anteena and if ruled against gets 21 days to comply. Of course the best course of action is to be a good neighbor and try to come up with a better solution so long as it is not burdensome to the homeowner. That's the whole reason for OTARD.

From the OTARD fact sheet

Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?

A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.
 

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Legend
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The spiteful side of me says to put this one up instead. :evilgrin:



The more reasonable side of me says to try an attice installation if at all possible. I had my antenna in my attic at a distance of 63 miles and it worked well. Of course your mileage my vary.
 

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wakajawaka said:
No, the homeowner does not have to prove the HOA rule was illegal, the burden is solely on the HOA. So if they want to spend the money to show that the resident doesn't comply with OTARD they can. In the mean time the homeowner keeps the anteena and if ruled against gets 21 days to comply. Of course the best course of action is to be a good neighbor and try to come up with a better solution so long as it is not burdensome to the homeowner. That's the whole reason for OTARD.

From the OTARD fact sheet

Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?

A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.
I was referring to court action(s), not FCC processes. Of course, the court would probably throw out any complaint that had not gone through the FCC petition/waiver process first.

I tried to read the entire regulation to see what it said for myself, instead of relying on the FCC FAQs, but the GPO server is not responding. :(
 

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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You guys are awesome and it seems that I have many people who feel the same way I do. I am waiting for them to call me back and try to explain to me what they really want in this situation. With all of your help- I feel armed with enough ammunition to be able to fight this situation head-on. I appreciate any more advice but again- thank you.
 

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shortstop11_jeff said:
You guys are awesome and it seems that I have many people who feel the same way I do. I am waiting for them to call me back and try to explain to me what they really want in this situation. With all of your help- I feel armed with enough ammunition to be able to fight this situation head-on. I appreciate any more advice but again- thank you.
The best advice any of us can give you is to keep it cool... You are in the right, but as someone pointed out, generally the HOA has more resources than you do to fight it, so if it gets nasty, it becomes harder for you. Besides, if it has to get nasty, even if you do win, suddenly the HOA is going to be all over every little thing you do. Same with the other home owner.... if you have a blade of grass that's out of place, look out.

Find out what exactly the HOA proposes you do. Maybe there's a spot out behind the shed which would not be too big a deal to put your antenna and which the other homeowner would find less offensive - in which case, bite the bullet, make nice and move the antenna. If they're proposing something drastic, track down a cache of automatic weapons and go in guns blazing....... Oh wait.. I said keep it cool, didn't I. Scratch the automatic weapons.. :)

In all liklihood, the HOA or the other homeowner just don't know what the rules are as to what you can and cannot install. Frankly, I think satellite dishes are ugly and I make every effort to hide them, but not all my neighbors do the same, and I realize that's within their rights, and so nobody gets hurt. However, I didn't know better, I'd be a little irritated by some of the installation choices our neighbors have made and might raise a stink....
 

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A little off topic but since Im on my cell phone I Can get it to pm so shortstop11 jeff I was jut wondering what part of Frederick you live in? Because I to live in the city and was told that an antenna wouldn't work but I would love to have one . P M me if you want
 
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