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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For many years here on the Oregon Coast, Dish or Direct would win hands down. There was no comparison when it comes to cable. I just did some checking on the Charter Cable site and things have changed in the past year or so. They now offer much more HD and they offer several channels that Dish doesn't. First off, they carry ME TV. No Antenna TV as yet though. They have CNN International, but no BBC World. They offer Disney, Disney XD, Disney Jr, and well as TV Land in HD. Flex is also in their main package, but Encore is in the movie channel pack. The Encore Suspense is in HD and maybe another one. They carry Sprout, VH1 Soul, 1YK channel, and a few others Dish doesn't have. Most of what is in Dish's Blockbuster package is also carried on Charter. I have read that Dish does not have the room to add many new channels. But the majority of the new channels they have been adding are Sports. We how have about 35 sports channels in AT250 that we pay for. I could care less about sports and generally I do not compain about them as everyone likes something different. However, I wish there were more general new channels that other carries are getting and Dish isn't. Right now Charter does not have Antenna TV. If they pick it up, I will very much be tempted to go to a small package with Dish to keep the Super Stations and get Charter Cable. METV as well as CNN I are a plus, but not enough to get me over there. First off METV is going to be on an OTA translator soon when the ABC station out of Portland switches. Get TV will also be included and I can stream CNN I so I get that, but not in HD quality with the Roku. But in closing, I wish Dish would add some of the new channels to keep me interested. Even Time Warner in Kansas City has CNN I and BBC World.
 

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I would just buy an antenna before I paid for a cable service. I noticed when I was paying for my interwebs package. they had an HD DVR on display in the office and I think it was on discovery HD or something like that. well anyways the picture was breaking up and i'm sure it wasn't the TV's fault. cable has always been the worst way to watch tv. they have to amp up the signal every so far!! but as far as your question about cable companies or satellite companies not all of em carry the same channels on there line up that you can get on rabbit ears I had a friend that had this problem with TWC well he cancelled and went back to rabbit ears because of it
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Antenna TV is not available here OTA and probably never will be unless the future brings streaming to OTA TV stations. We only have a hand full of OTA TV here.
ABC (still analog), but will switch to digital soon bringing METV and GET TV. the rest are digital, CBS has no sub channels, NBC has Live well and Estrella on theirs. PBS has two streaming signals, as well as a 3rd with three sets of audio. Fox and MYTV are piggybacked together in digital. That is it. I have an Yagi and I get all of the OTA translators here now. I am not in love with cable either. That is why I stay with Dish. They are great, but I wish we would get more general channels and less of the sports. If I lived in somewhere like LA with over 100+ OTA digital signals, I probably would not be interested in subscribing to satellite or cable, but our options here are few. To get much more variety, I bought a Roku and they are amazing. I am a fan of old B&W TV shows from the 40s and 50s. I found an episode with originial commercials of the Steve Allen Show from Dec 1957. The Roku also streams You Tube and there is a lot of variety on that channel.

Patrick
 

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I don't know if Dish is falling behind. It is what it is, which is a good quality satellite television service.

I cancelled my Dish subscription in March because of tight finances.

Now that football season is upon us, and my finances aren't quite so tight, I started hunting around for something to allow me to watch Big10 football and the US Open. I was happy with Dish when I had it, but with uncertainty about my future, I was hesitant to sign a 2-year commitment to go back to them. There's a local cable company here that I get Internet service from, so I looked at their offerings and packages. Underwhelming, to be sure. To get ESPN and an HD DVR, I was looking at $100/month. And that was the promotional price. Then I looked at our phone company, who ran fiber directly into my house last year. They are very small, so I didn't expect much. But they offered a free installation and their package price (not promotional) was very reasonable: $70/month including HD and the DVR. Not as many channels as Dish, to be sure, but almost all of what I wanted and no commitment. The tech came on Monday and hooked me up.

Um... Dish is WAAAY behind on picture quality. The LiL were barely watchable with Dish. They are indistinguishable from broadcast through the fiber. I used to avert my eyes when there were transition screens on ESPN with Dish because the macroblocking was so bad. They're perfect now. Color depth is better as well. And once the promotional period with Dish would end, the prices are just about the same as AT120, and I'm getting all but one of the channels I'd want in AT200. But if I moved one town east, my choices would be pretty poor for television service locally and Dish would be the best option.

So the short answer is, for me, Dish isn't top dog. But that is a very location-specific evaluation and different markets are going to come to different conclusions.
 

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mwdxer said:
For many years here on the Oregon Coast, Dish or Direct would win hands down. There was no comparison when it comes to cable. I just did some checking on the Charter Cable site and things have changed in the past year or so. They now offer much more HD and they offer several channels that Dish doesn't. First off, they carry ME TV. No Antenna TV as yet though. They have CNN International, but no BBC World. They offer Disney, Disney XD, Disney Jr, and well as TV Land in HD. Flex is also in their main package, but Encore is in the movie channel pack. The Encore Suspense is in HD and maybe another one. They carry Sprout, VH1 Soul, 1YK channel, and a few others Dish doesn't have. Most of what is in Dish's Blockbuster package is also carried on Charter. I have read that Dish does not have the room to add many new channels. But the majority of the new channels they have been adding are Sports. We how have about 35 sports channels in AT250 that we pay for. I could care less about sports and generally I do not compain about them as everyone likes something different. However, I wish there were more general new channels that other carries are getting and Dish isn't. Right now Charter does not have Antenna TV. If they pick it up, I will very much be tempted to go to a small package with Dish to keep the Super Stations and get Charter Cable. METV as well as CNN I are a plus, but not enough to get me over there. First off METV is going to be on an OTA translator soon when the ABC station out of Portland switches. Get TV will also be included and I can stream CNN I so I get that, but not in HD quality with the Roku. But in closing, I wish Dish would add some of the new channels to keep me interested. Even Time Warner in Kansas City has CNN I and BBC World.
KRON in San Francisco has AntemaTV but I'm too far away to get it with a digital antenna.
 

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I think others have addressed some of this in the OTA forum, but the various networks like MeTV, Antenna, Sprout, ThisTv, Cozi, Bounce, etc. are treated as local stations, even though they are national feeds. DIsh or DirecTV would not have the capacity to carry all these channels fro every market. Cable has them because they are de facto local stations for a market they serve. Thus, unless someone has a better reason, the sub-channels do not fall on the retransmission agreement with DitectTV or DISH. Or, they do, but they must be carried for each specific market, which is impractical.

It would be nice to get the sub-channels national feeds, but that may be wishful thinking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I know that Dish does not have a room to carry all of the OTA channels from each market, but what would they have to? They go with contracts and they could sign to add Antenna TV either as a National service (where available) or go by the local DNA and add it if the station carries it OTA. Also getting Antenna TV and THIS TV and adding it in SD should not take much bandwidth. They are all only in SD. I cannot imagine adding those types of channels would cost all that much to carry either. Like others have stated, I am not a huge fan of cable tv either. I would never totally drop Dish anyway, but I would like to have access to more of the standard type channels other than one sports channel after another. I think 35 sports channels in AT250 is a bit much. I do use Charter Cable for the internet and the phone. DSL is not available here.

Patrick
 

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ground_pounder said:
I would just buy an antenna before I paid for a cable service. I noticed when I was paying for my interwebs package. they had an HD DVR on display in the office and I think it was on discovery HD or something like that. well anyways the picture was breaking up and i'm sure it wasn't the TV's fault. cable has always been the worst way to watch tv. they have to amp up the signal every so far!! but as far as your question about cable companies or satellite companies not all of em carry the same channels on there line up that you can get on rabbit ears I had a friend that had this problem with TWC well he cancelled and went back to rabbit ears because of it
Things have changed in the cable television world many companies have upgraded to digital only which uses switched digital video. Using this technology cable companies no longer have to force hundreds of channels down the same wire clogging up the bandwidth. Your cable box or M cable card are only sent the channels they are tuned to, thereby eliminating the bottleneck. I used to have DISH and just recently pulled the plug moving to OTA for cost savings. However, I have a friend that has Charter and to be honest his cable box's PQ looked as good as my DISH receiver had provided me. We have the same exact television and I could not see any difference myself. He also is able to receiver several other HD channels that were not offered by DISH. Personally I believe that cable companies have stepped up their game to fight back at sat companies. Additionally, his cable box outputs in 1080p!
 

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I'm not sure it is fair to compare the broadcast offerings of cable TV with those of satellite TV. We know a lot of the regulations are different between the two.

Hand picking a couple of obscure national channels isn't fair either but if they're on your list of must haves, they shouldn't be left out of a side-by-side comparison.

The KATU analog translator thing is a shame but it looks like it will flash cut to digital (if it hasn't already) within 13 months (when the construction permit expires). Fortunately, classic TV programming never really ages.
 

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Interesting topic, but isn't part of it what Dish has to offer?

Here's one example. Dish pulled the plug on ion west. OK, I get it, why have a repeat of ion.

It was part of my fav list, so after it disappeared, I changed the guide to "my channels" to see what happened to it, lo and behold, yet another info channel now occupies that spot.

If Dish does not have the room to add new channels, why would they replace something with yet more crap?

I call BS on this practice.

I too have 250, and yes, I agree, adding more sports to justify cost is lame.

I realize we have to share the junk with the good, but this was just a money grab.

I also recognize several posters here who have gone to OTA for financial reasons, and I'm betting there are a lot more, with more to come.

People want bang for their buck, the economy is not what it was, and Dish needs to pay attention here.
 

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Look at what DISH has done with locals lately ... a lot of people are getting their own in market ION station. DISH carrying the national feed was part of a deal where they would not have to carry all the individual local stations ... saving backhaul and uplink bandwidth. Where is the savings for DISH to uplink ION east and west and all the local stations?

DISH is tight on HD bandwidth ... I'll have to do another audit soon to figure out how tight but by my count they were down to three remaining slots ... or more 10 HD per transponder "HD" channels. DISH had plenty of space on SD transponders at last look (yes, the transponders can be used for either HD or SD but on Western Arc they cannot be used for both ... so put QPSK MPEG2 SD channels on a transponder and it is pretty much dedicated to SD).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
All of these OTA channels that run Classic TV are all SD 480i, METV, THIS, RTV, Antenna TV, Movies, Get TV, Cozi, etc. There should be plenty of space to add any of those. Antenna TV in my book is the best of the bunch running so many Classic shows that you cannot find elsewhere. METV comes in as secord, followed by THIS and the others. Some like Get TV and Movies run only old movies, not the old shows. Those I do not care about as TCM, AMC, FXM, run old movies without commercials. But Antenna TV would really be a plus. There are many older people that sub to Dish that would love to see the old shows again. Antenna TV is carried in a few markets on Dish but not many. The same is true with METV. We have part time Cozi as FETV runs that and I thank Dish and FETV to carrying the service. Don't get me wrong, I love Dish. Infact I own all of my equipment. I am one who does not lease. I have been a sub since 1999 continuously. Dish has a lot of stuff that Direct TV doesn't have. Infact in checking, Direct TV prices are higher for less channels. Plus, the Super Stations are not available elsewhere. That is another reason would not leave Dish. The 211k is a good receiver, especially with the OTA tuner and guide, plus the add on the harddrive to may it a DVR. Dish has a lot going for it. But again, I would really welcome more new general channels even in SD, instead of the constant addition of sports channels. We all know, the sports channels cost a lot of money and our rates go up and I feel often it is because of the sports channels. I just wish Dish could put all the sports channels in another package and that way the people that want them could subscribe. I am sure the packages without the sports, the cost would be a lot lower and even if Dish did not lower the bill, the increases would probably be a lot less often. But I would like a bit more ballance with the addition of new channels.

Patrick
 

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If you can get any of those providers to give their programming to DISH at a decent price it would help ... but for the most part they sell their programming to local affiliates who would be upset if the content they are paying for is showing up on DISH without their local commercials and co-branding.

If they would pay DISH for carriage it would even be better. I believe FETV is paying DISH.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I presume Dish does have enough space to add a channel like Antenna TV in their makets where the channel is offered OTA. They made a deal with the Anchorage DMA to carry the sub channels there. Why couldn't Dish carry certain sub channels? I do not mean Dish should try to carry the channel without the local ads in that market. But there must be some way to offer a channel like Antenna TV. I doubt a sub channel like Antenna TV would not cost much to carry. I have talked with engineers at several stations and they do not have an issue with their sub channels being carried by Dish, but they tell me the contracts between an OTA type service is different. But again Dish has worked out a deal in some markets, so it can be done. Too bad there isn't a cable channel like FETV (that carries COZI), that carries Antenna TV. It may be easier. If Dish did not offer Antenna TV is some markets, I would feel it could not be done, but they worked it out in some. METV is offered in some markets where the main channel is running it and not on a sub channel. Antenna TV would really be a nice addition to Dish's line up. I have several friends who have Dish and like me, most are not sports fans. So when Dish adds yet another sports channel we all have to pay for and nothing new otherwise, it is frustrating. The bills keep going up. I loved the days when Charlie Chat was run and each month he would list off a bunch of new channels that were added. I really looked forward to the show as I never knew what was coming down the pipe.
Is Dish planing any new launches, so more transponder space will be available?

Patrick
 

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mwdxer said:
I presume Dish does have enough space to add a channel like Antenna TV in their makets where the channel is offered OTA.
DISH only needs to have space for the primary feed of each channel in each market. If they carry one station in the market in HD they need to have space to carry all of the stations in the market in HD (whether or not that primary feed is HD). DISH does not have to have the space for all the additional subchannels.

mwdxer said:
They made a deal with the Anchorage DMA to carry the sub channels there.
Congress made a law requiring subchannel carriage in Alaska. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
In other words Dish could not contract to carry only certain sub channels in the markets? Like could they carry all of the Antenna TV feeds? For instance if Dish worked out a deal to carry Antenna TV in Portland OR, would they have to carry everything on the sub channels or just Antenna TV in Portland? Also if they carried Antenna TV in Portland, would they have to carry Antenna TV in all markets?
 

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mwdxer said:
In other words Dish could not contract to carry only certain sub channels in the markets? Like could they carry all of the Antenna TV feeds? For instance if Dish worked out a deal to carry Antenna TV in Portland OR, would they have to carry everything on the sub channels or just Antenna TV in Portland? Also if they carried Antenna TV in Portland, would they have to carry Antenna TV in all markets?
Using Antenna TV as an example - the other networks would have the same challenges ---

If Antenna TV wanted to make a deal with DISH for a national feed they would need to take into account all of the local markets that have an Antenna TV sub-channel. Either they would need to have DISH deliver Antenna TV only to markets without local affiliates or they would need to work out a deal with the affiliates they sold the rights to in each market. It is basically the same problem ABC would have if they decided to start a national cable feed of ABC ... they have already sold the rights to their network in certain markets.

As far as the local sub-channels: If it is not the primary feed of a TV station DISH does not have to carry it (with the exception of Alaska/Hawaii). DISH cannot accept payment for carriage of a local TV station feed. It is either carry for free or DISH compensating the station. (Compensation comes into play if the station chooses "consent to carry" and asks for compensation in exchange for consent.) There would have to be a benefit to DISH to carrying the sub-channels.

There are markets where DISH has chosen to carry a sub-channel. In my market one sub-channel is carried because it was once the UPN affiliate and apparently the CBS affiliate that has it as a sub-channel demanded carriage as part of the compensation for carrying their CBS feed. There are other markets where a major affiliate such as ABC, CBS, FOX or NBC would be missing if DISH did not carry the sub-channel - and since DISH cannot import an out of market station in those situations they carry the sub-channel (if the local station grants consent). These are situations where there is a benefit to DISH to carrying the sub-channels.
 

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Rduce said:
Things have changed in the cable television world many companies have upgraded to digital only which uses switched digital video. Using this technology cable companies no longer have to force hundreds of channels down the same wire clogging up the bandwidth. Your cable box or M cable card are only sent the channels they are tuned to, thereby eliminating the bottleneck.
Thing is most of the folks on this board dropped cable for satellite years ago so they can be excused for not keeping up with what's going on in the cable world. I signed up with DirecTV in early '98 and there was a night-and-day difference between their equipment and the cable box I turned in. Then came DVR and then HD. I had a cable rep knock on my door in '06 about switching and I asked him to let me research it and I found that I would lose CBS and FOX in HD if I switched. Then in '08 DirecTV deployed the MPEG-4 channels and it was like Christmas figuring out what new channels would be deployed every Wednesday.

A few years later TWC did a great job of playing catch up and were actually offering HD channels DirecTV didn't. Then there was the fact that the Internet they offered was miles better than what I could bundle with DirecTV. I had a TiVo that could accept a CableCard so I gave it a whirl. Now I've moved on to a six tuner Ethernet device from Ceton and a W7 Ultimate 64-bit PC. I use an Xbox 360 as a media extender so I can watch recording or Live TV in another room. I was one of those folks that was disappointed that the DirecTV tuner for PC was never deployed. It's coming up on two years ago that I canceled DirecTV and I really don't miss anything at this point in time.

I don't think it's so much that satellite has fallen behind, but cable has done a good job of catching up in a lot of areas.
 
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James Long said:
Look at what DISH has done with locals lately ... a lot of people are getting their own in market ION station. DISH carrying the national feed was part of a deal where they would not have to carry all the individual local stations ... saving backhaul and uplink bandwidth. Where is the savings for DISH to uplink ION east and west and all the local stations?

DISH is tight on HD bandwidth ... I'll have to do another audit soon to figure out how tight but by my count they were down to three remaining slots ... or more 10 HD per transponder "HD" channels. DISH had plenty of space on SD transponders at last look (yes, the transponders can be used for either HD or SD but on Western Arc they cannot be used for both ... so put QPSK MPEG2 SD channels on a transponder and it is pretty much dedicated to SD).
Not sure what you mean. I don't get local "ion" from Dish, and Dish still carries ion east, it was just the fact that Dish "freed up" a channel [ ion west, which was a duplicate, to be sure] and replaced the programming with YET another info-mercial channel.

Like MWDXER indicated, "balance" in adding new channels [ other than info or shopping] would be fair.

Really, nothing to look forward to at this point.
 

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satcrazy said:
Not sure what you mean. I don't get local "ion" from Dish, and Dish still carries ion east, it was just the fact that Dish "freed up" a channel [ ion west, which was a duplicate, to be sure] and replaced the programming with YET another info-mercial channel.
Perhaps you missed it ... DISH dropped the national ION feed (both of them) after adding all of the local ION feeds. ION wanted all of their locals carried (which is their right as individual local stations choosing "must carry") but did not want to pay for delivery to the rest of the nation. Once they decided to pay the situation was sorted out.

satcrazy said:
Like MWDXER indicated, "balance" in adding new channels [ other than info or shopping] would be fair.
DISH carries channels that pay or that are worth paying for ...
SEC, Longhorn, Goal Line/Buzzer Beater/Bases Loaded, Fusion, Disney Jr - all recent additions.
ION, NewsMax - willing to pay. Channel 217 (western arc only) - willing to pay.
 
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