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· Mentor
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I could be wrong on this but I think whatever format light is showing on the box. If it's lit up to 480 you're getting 480, and then your TV takes over from there to upconvert, etc.
 

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traderfjp said:
When the native res. is set to off what becomes the default rez. for SD and HD? Is there another setting somewhere?
If native is off, then set your res on the front panel to the res that matches (most closely) the native display resolution of your TV. Typcially those will be:

720p (set HR20 to 720p)
1080i (set HR20 to 720p or 1080i, whichever looks better to you)
1080p (set HR20 to 720p or 1080i, whichever looks better to you)

When the HR20 is tuned to a 480i SD channel, it will upconvert it to whatever your front panel display is set to...and the TV will display it (and rescale/deinterlace as required)
 

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traderfjp said:
I have a Sony SXRD. The set upconverts everything to 1080P. Should I leave the native rez. on or off in the HR-20 settings?
To begin with (before you get bored and want to play with a ton of settings)

Try it one of the two following ways:

Turn native mode OFF in the HR20

Set the HR20 output res on the front panel to:

720p (now take a careful look at a variety of video material and see what you think)

then change the HR20 to ouput res on the front panel to:

1080i (now take a careful look at a variety of vide material and see what you think)

Once you decide whether 720p or 1080i looks better when upconverted to 1080p by your TV, leave it set that way.

Some think 720p > 1080p is the best way to go because it stays progressive. Others like matching the resolution, even though at 1080i, you have to convert from interlaced to progressive.
 

· DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
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1,010 Posts
hasan said:
To begin with (before you get bored and want to play with a ton of settings)

Try it one of the two following ways:

Turn native mode OFF in the HR20

Set the HR20 output res on the front panel to:

720p (now take a careful look at a variety of video material and see what you think)

then change the HR20 to ouput res on the front panel to:

1080i (now take a careful look at a variety of vide material and see what you think)

Once you decide whether 720p or 1080i looks better when upconverted to 1080p by your TV, leave it set that way.

Some think 720p > 1080p is the best way to go because it stays progressive. Others like matching the resolution, even though at 1080i, you have to convert from interlaced to progressive.
Well put. ;)
 

· AllStar
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68 Posts
hasan said:
To begin with (before you get bored and want to play with a ton of settings)

Try it one of the two following ways:

Turn native mode OFF in the HR20

Set the HR20 output res on the front panel to:

720p (now take a careful look at a variety of video material and see what you think)

then change the HR20 to ouput res on the front panel to:

1080i (now take a careful look at a variety of vide material and see what you think)

Once you decide whether 720p or 1080i looks better when upconverted to 1080p by your TV, leave it set that way.

Some think 720p > 1080p is the best way to go because it stays progressive. Others like matching the resolution, even though at 1080i, you have to convert from interlaced to progressive.
This is crazy, you would never want to output 1080i broadcasts as 720P from any STB if you have a true 1080P display because you will never get 1080 resolution, its LOST FOREVER when the STB converts the 1080i broadcast to 720P. Secondly,
you DONT GET a real 720P/60 output from the STB when you cross-convert a 1080i broadcast to 720P, it ends up a pseudo 720P30 signal not a real 720P60 signal so there is nothing to be gained by doing that. The best thing to do is use native output and you will get the best of each of the HD formats has to offer, not the worst.
 

· DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
Joined
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1,010 Posts
JCO said:
This is crazy, you would never want to output 1080i broadcasts as 720P from any STB if you have a true 1080P display because you will never get 1080 resolution, its LOST FOREVER when the STB converts the 1080i broadcast to 720P. Secondly,
you DONT GET a real 720P/60 output from the STB when you cross-convert a 1080i broadcast to 720P, it ends up a pseudo 720P30 signal not a real 720P60 signal so there is nothing to be gained by doing that. The best thing to do is use native output and you will get the best of each of the HD formats has to offer, not the worst.
I'm not saying I disagree that you will never get a 1080 rez when driving 720P....but how do you figure only a 720/30? out of the settop. The HR20 will provide a 720/60P output conrvesion.
 

· AllStar
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68 Posts
thekochs said:
I'm not saying I disagree that you will never get a 1080 rez when driving 720P....but how do you figure only a 720/30? out of the settop. The HR20 will provide a 720/60P output conrvesion.
you only get a 720/30 signal from a 1080i/60 cross conversion because 1080i/60 format requires two fields to create a single progressive field. when you convert a 1080i/60 signal to 720p/60 the converter "cheats" and doubles every frame to get 60 for 720/p60. while there are technically 60 progressive frames, since there are two of everthing it looks just the same as 720p/30 would, and wont have the smoothness of true 720P/60 for this reason as there are only 30 different frames per second, not 60.
 

· DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
Joined
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1,010 Posts
JCO said:
you only get a 720/30 signal from a 1080i/60 cross conversion because 1080i/60 format requires two fields to create a single progressive field. when you convert a 1080i/60 signal to 720p/60 the converter "cheats" and doubles every frame to get 60 for 720/p60. while there are technically 60 progressive frames, since there are two of everthing it looks just the same as 720p/30 would, and wont have the smoothness of true 720P/60 for this reason as there are only 30 different frames per second, not 60.
This is not correct.....when converting to 720P the decoder holds/combines the odd and even fields in the video frame buffer then writes them progressive to the screen in a single 60Hz frame.....else this would be more of a frame based 720i-ish thing you are describing and would look terrible if it existed. The refresh rate to the screen is still 60Hz no matter what. What you are describing is line doubling/replication which no decoders/scalar ICs have done for along time and was primarily used for scaling. They also used to do a similiar function for scaling as well called interpolation....they do not do this either anymore. They now use more intelligent/complex algorythms to scale & filter. There is some other items going on in that there must be some intelligent motion compensation calcs done in this conversion but way too deep for this forum. Suffice to say a 1080i conversion to 720P is not giving you a odd/even frame based effective 30Hz result....it is full 720P/60.

Man....I hate to re-open this discussion and put my foot in my mouth again but instead of giving my opinion on which is better here is the steps for people to try (I copied Hasan's because good start)

1) If you have high-end 1080P TV and want a set-n-forget setting, and can live with channel/format change delay, put NATIVE ON. This is also true if you feel your TV has much superior scalar than HR20....or you want to use the TV settings to adjust picture. {STOP: Don't Read Further}
2) Find out what your native resoulution of TV is....1280x720, 1368x768, 1920x1080
3) Turn Native mode OFF in the HR20.
4) Make sure 16:9 is set in HR20 as Display Type
5) Make sure on your TV you have set for Full Screen or Full Passthrough....descriptions vary.
6) If you have 1280x720 or 1368x768 native resolution TV set HR20 resolution to 720P only...make sure Format button has you one of these settings. {STOP: Do Not Read Further}
7) If you have 1920x1080 native resolution turn 720P and 1080i only on in HR20....make sure Format button has you on this setting.
8) Now, watch a bunch of material....SD, HBOHD (1080i), Sports (720P), Local HD, OTA HD.....use the Format button on Remote and switch between these formats as you view the material. You can decide to leave on one or the other. Note, since Native is OFF you forcing this format you toggle to be sent to the TV.

This above process should work for everyone since it allows for each user to setup and easily check their preferences.
 

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JCO said:
This is crazy, you would never want to output 1080i broadcasts as 720P from any STB if you have a true 1080P display because you will never get 1080 resolution, its LOST FOREVER when the STB converts the 1080i broadcast to 720P. Secondly,
you DONT GET a real 720P/60 output from the STB when you cross-convert a 1080i broadcast to 720P, it ends up a pseudo 720P30 signal not a real 720P60 signal so there is nothing to be gained by doing that. The best thing to do is use native output and you will get the best of each of the HD formats has to offer, not the worst.
What part of "take a look at it and see what you think" didn't you understand? I gave him some options to play with, that's all. If one of them is as bad as you seem to think, then it will get rejected out of hand, will it not?

This discussion has taken place for literally YEARS over in avsforum. The conclusions there are not as simplistic as your "one size fits all" approach. What is going to look best in your particular situation depends on how well the source device and the display device do their respective jobs. The only way to find that out is to try different combinations.

In the beginning, I laid out the easiest ones. Notice my comment about boredom. When one has nothing better to do, a lot more experimenting is in order, if you aren't satisfied, including leaving Native ON in the HR20.

With a new user, I think it is VERY poor advice to tell them to use Native ON, and then have to put up with the slow channel changes...most seem to object to that right away. My advice was to someone new, to get them going and not confuse them with too many variables. If the user is not satisfied, they can then proceed to try other options.

There is no "one answer" formula.
 

· AllStar
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thekochs said:
This is not correct.....when converting to 720P the decoder holds/combines the odd and even fields in the video frame buffer then writes them progressive to the screen in a single 60Hz frame.....else this would be more of a frame based 720i-ish thing you are describing and would look terrible if it existed. The refresh rate to the screen is still 60Hz no matter what. What you are describing is line doubling/replication which no decoders/scalar ICs have done for along time and was primarily used for scaling. They also used to do a similiar function for scaling as well called interpolation....they do not do this either anymore. They now use more intelligent/complex algorythms to scale & filter. There is some other items going on in that there must be some intelligent motion compensation calcs done in this conversion but way too deep for this forum. Suffice to say a 1080i conversion to 720P is not giving you a odd/even frame based effective 30Hz result....it is full 720P/60.

Man....I hate to re-open this discussion and put my foot in my mouth again but instead of giving my opinion on which is better here is the steps for people to try (I copied Hasan's because good start)

1) If you have high-end 1080P TV and want a set-n-forget setting, and can live with channel/format change delay, put NATIVE ON. This is also true if you feel your TV has much superior scalar than HR20....or you want to use the TV settings to adjust picture. {STOP: Don't Read Further}
2) Find out what your native resoulution of TV is....1280x720, 1368x768, 1920x1080
3) Turn Native mode OFF in the HR20.
4) Make sure 16:9 is set in HR20 as Display Type
5) Make sure on your TV you have set for Full Screen or Full Passthrough....descriptions vary.
6) If you have 1280x720 or 1368x768 native resolution TV set HR20 resolution to 720P only...make sure Format button has you one of these settings. {STOP: Do Not Read Further}
7) If you have 1920x1080 native resolution turn 720P and 1080i only on in HR20....make sure Format button has you on this setting.
8) Now, watch a bunch of material....SD, HBOHD (1080i), Sports (720P), Local HD, OTA HD.....use the Format button on Remote and switch between these formats as you view the material. You can decide to leave on one or the other. Note, since Native is OFF you forcing this format you toggle to be sent to the TV.

This above process should work for everyone since it allows for each user to setup and easily check their preferences.
Sorry Sir - But you are BLATANTLY misinformed. You cannot creat 60 discrete smooth motion frames from a recording that only has 30 and that is what 1080i/60 has. What the 1080i/60 cross conversion to 720P/60 does is double every deinterlaced frame so you get frame 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4, etc to29,29,30,30 with the final result being 30 frames shown twice each every 60 seconds. It certainly doesnt look horrible, never said that, but its not as smooth as true 720p/60 which gives you 1,2,3,4,5 etc thru 58,59,60 every second. Why is this so difficult
for you to grasp?

1080i/60>720P/60 and 720P/60> 1080i/60 cross coversions are ALWAYS LOSSY
compared in the final result compared to the REAL signal. A cross converted 720P/60 signal does not have the true 60 frames per second in the final result and a cross converted 1080i/60 signal does not have the true 1080 resolution in the final result. It is impossible to make flawless cross conversions because 720P/60
and 1980i/60 are each imcompatible with each other in such a way that perfect non lossy cross conversions cant be done. thats why the two formats exist. If one
could be perfectly cross converted into the other there wouldnt be two formats in use. 720P/6- optimizes the given databandwidth for best motion characteristics, while 1080i/60 optimizes the given databandwidth for best resolution characteristics. Whenever you end up with a cross converted signal you get the WORST of the two formats which is the only common denominator.
 

· AllStar
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68 Posts
hasan said:
What part of "take a look at it and see what you think" didn't you understand? I gave him some options to play with, that's all. If one of them is as bad as you seem to think, then it will get rejected out of hand, will it not?

This discussion has taken place for literally YEARS over in avsforum. The conclusions there are not as simplistic as your "one size fits all" approach. What is going to look best in your particular situation depends on how well the source device and the display device do their respective jobs. The only way to find that out is to try different combinations.

In the beginning, I laid out the easiest ones. Notice my comment about boredom. When one has nothing better to do, a lot more experimenting is in order, if you aren't satisfied, including leaving Native ON in the HR20.

With a new user, I think it is VERY poor advice to tell them to use Native ON, and then have to put up with the slow channel changes...most seem to object to that right away. My advice was to someone new, to get them going and not confuse them with too many variables. If the user is not satisfied, they can then proceed to try other options.

There is no "one answer" formula.
YES there is, its called "native" and your tv design engineers have already
figured out the very best thing to do with all the different possible input resolutions WITH THAT PARTICLAR SET, if you use native then you cant make a big mistake. Sure the set
takes longer to sync to the changes in format rez , but its a small price to pay
rather than watch hours of inferior looking imagery made due to a poor
box setting choice to help speed up channel change sync a second or two.
 

· Mentor
Joined
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45 Posts
Interesting debate. Some good information and some bad. One critical point that seems to have been overlooked is to answer the question: Where should I do any format conversions? A: In the STB (source device) or B: in the DTV (display device). This is a complex topic. Here is my advice:

To answer that question you have to decide which one has the better scaler engine. The advice below is somewhat generic and all points don't necessarily apply to the HR20.

1. If there is a significant age difference between the two products (e.g. old STB, new DTV) then I'd suggest the newer technology might be better, but newer isn't always better. Five years from now, there might be some scaler engines that are significantly better than today's state of the art.

2. You also have to examine what connection is being used. Are you using compressed (1394/Firewire) or uncompressed (HDMI/DVI)? (HR20 doesn't support 1394.) Or is it analog (component or VGA)? I'd say anytime an analog connector is being used, you should upconvert at the source not the DTV. If you are using a compressed connection (like some HD cable STBs) then you MUST be using "native" mode, since there are no STBs that have HD ENCODERS inside them to do a compressed format conversion. Finally if you are using uncompressed digital (HDMI/DVI) then there are additional factors to consider:

3. With an uncompressed digital interface (HDMI/DVI), you typically want to do any format conversion at the MPEG DECODER (which means at the STB). This is because when changes are made from interlace to progressive or when changing the frame rate it is VERY HELPFUL to have the motion vector information avaialable. The motion vector data is available in the MPEG stream and used by the decoder and scaler. Once the signal leaves the box via HDMI/DVI the motion vector data is lost forever. While it is possible to do scaling and rate conversion without it, it is never as accurate.

Summary: It is best to do all scaling and format conversion at the source (HR20) since it has access to the motion vectors and the DTV dipslay (whether connected by HDMI or component) will not. To avoid any additional loss in spatial resolution, the output should always be set to match the spatial resolutio of the display. A 720p dispaly should be set for 720p, a 1080i display should be set for 1080i. If you have a 1080p display (I do) you stiill send it 1080i since the HR20 doesn't scale to 1080p.

One other factor to consider is aspect ratio. When the format conversion is done by the source (STB) the graphics, onscreen menus and overlays, which are under the control of the STB are aware of the conversion and should not be chopped off or distorted in the process. But when the conversion is done by the DTV, the OSD and GUI can be distorted or cut-off in the process.

The new SXRDs have a great scaler engine, but it's only opportunity to shine is when you are also using the TVs' own MPEG decoder. That only happens with the built-in tuner. When you use a HDMI with the SXRD, use the HR20 to do the scaling.
 

· DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
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1,010 Posts
JCO said:
Sorry Sir - But you are BLATANTLY misinformed. You cannot creat 60 discrete smooth motion frames from a recording that only has 30 and that is what 1080i/60 has. What the 1080i/60 cross conversion to 720P/60 does is double every deinterlaced frame so you get frame 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4, etc to29,29,30,30 with the final result being 30 frames shown twice each every 60 seconds. It certainly doesnt look horrible, never said that, but its not as smooth as true 720p/60 which gives you 1,2,3,4,5 etc thru 58,59,60 every second.
Well, I will most definitely agree with you nothing compares to the origional 1:1 source being decoded and passed through 1:1 to a matching 1:1 native screen rez....nirvana.

I think you/I disagree on the back-end. The 60 in the 1080i60 is the field not frame refresh rate. I think VideoVeteran made a good point which I'll add in to my response. Your 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,etc. explanation is fine but it really becomes [1odd,1even], [2odd,2even], [3odd,3even], [4odd,4even], etc. placed into a single frame buffer where motion comp and other filter alogrythms are placed on the new frame (eg. lancosz, etc.). This newly built 1280x720 frame buffer is then displayed on the TV at 60Hz progressively. Thus, the user is seeing a progressive image not a frame interlaced image as your explanation eludes to. Obviously....I'm using a 720P native screen in this example.

Regardless if you/I/others agree on how the conversion/scaling works for those reading I think the process for them to determine their best setting still holds true:

******************************************
1) If you have high-end 1080P TV and want a set-n-forget setting, and can live with channel/format change delay, put NATIVE ON. This is also true if you feel your TV has much superior scalar than HR20....or you want to use the TV settings to adjust picture. {STOP: Don't Read Further}
2) Find out what your native resoulution of TV is....1280x720, 1368x768, 1920x1080
3) Turn Native mode OFF in the HR20.
4) Make sure 16:9 is set in HR20 as Display Type
5) Make sure on your TV you have set for Full Screen or Full Passthrough....descriptions vary.
6) If you have 1280x720 or 1368x768 native resolution TV set HR20 resolution to 720P only...make sure Format button has you one of these settings. {STOP: Do Not Read Further}
7) If you have 1920x1080 native resolution turn 720P and 1080i only on in HR20....make sure Format button has you on this setting.
8) Now, watch a bunch of material....SD, HBOHD (1080i), Sports (720P), Local HD, OTA HD.....use the Format button on Remote and switch between these formats as you view the material. You can decide to leave on one or the other. Note, since Native is OFF you forcing this format you toggle to be sent to the TV.
******************************************
 

· AllStar
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68 Posts
thekochs said:
Well, I will most definitely agree with you nothing compares to the origional 1:1 source being decoded and passed through 1:1 to a matching 1:1 native screen rez....nirvana.

I think you/I disagree on the back-end. The 60 in the 1080i60 is the field not frame refresh rate. I think VideoVeteran made a good point which I'll add in to my response. Your 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,etc. explanation is fine but it really becomes [1odd,1even], [2odd,2even], [3odd,3even], [4odd,4even], etc. placed into a single frame buffer where motion comp and other filter alogrythms are placed on the new frame (eg. lancosz, etc.). This newly built 1280x720 frame buffer is then displayed on the TV at 60Hz progressively. Thus, the user is seeing a progressive image not a frame interlaced image as your explanation eludes to. Obviously....I'm using a 720P native screen in this example.

Regardless if you/I/others agree on how the conversion/scaling works for those reading I think the process for them to determine their best setting still holds true:

***************************************************************
1) If you have high-end 1080P TV and want a set-n-forget setting, and can live with channel/format change delay, put NATIVE ON. This is also true if you feel your TV has much superior scalar than HR20....or you want to use the TV settings to adjust picture. {STOP: Don't Read Further}
2) Find out what your native resoulution of TV is....1280x720, 1368x768, 1920x1080
3) Turn Native mode OFF in the HR20.
4) Make sure 16:9 is set in HR20 as Display Type
5) Make sure on your TV you have set for Full Screen or Full Passthrough....descriptions vary.
6) If you have 1280x720 or 1368x768 native resolution TV set HR20 resolution to 720P only...make sure Format button has you one of these settings. {STOP: Do Not Read Further}
7) If you have 1920x1080 native resolution turn 720P and 1080i only on in HR20....make sure Format button has you on this setting.
8) Now, watch a bunch of material....SD, HBOHD (1080i), Sports (720P), Local HD, OTA HD.....use the Format button on Remote and switch between these formats as you view the material. You can decide to leave on one or the other. Note, since Native is OFF you forcing this format you toggle to be sent to the TV.
I dont know where you are getting this odd/even non-sense from. When I said the final cross converted 720P/60 signal shows 1,1,2,2,...29,29,30,30, each of those frames are a single frame constructed from an odd and even pair of 1080i fields. the frames in the final cross converted 720p are not odd or even, they are just frames.
 

· DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
Joined
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1,010 Posts
JCO said:
I dont know where you are getting this odd/even non-sense from. When I said the final cross converted 720P/60 signal shows 1,1,2,2,...29,29,30,30, each of those frames are a single frame constructed from an odd and even pair of 1080i fields. the frames in the final cross converted 720p are not odd or even, they are just frames.
Agreed....that's what my brackets meant...one frame is [1odd,1even]. Where you/I disagree.....and this is my last post...realy :p ....is that you say this source is only 30....when the field rate of 1080i60 is 60. I then disagree it is 1,1,2,2,3,3....I say the playback is 1,2,3,4 output at 60Hz.

Anyway....my two cents but it really doesn't matter....most folks will have their own opinion on what looks best to them. ....ala...do you like blonde, brunette, redhead Victoria Secret model. I guess like this subject arguing the details of it really is stupid. With a 1080i HD broadcast and a $4K+ 1920x1080P TV is there really a bad setting ? Anyway....I tried to outline a simple process above for most to just walk through and try and let them make their own choice.

Cheers.....by the way.....I do enjoy the banter....really. :sure:

P.S. I see you are in South Florida....are you a Florida fan ? Big game Monday.
 

· AllStar
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68 Posts
thekochs said:
Agreed....that's what my brackets meant...one frame is [1odd,1even]. Where you/I disagree.....and this is my last post...realy :p ....is that you say this source is only 30....when the field rate of 1080i60 is 60. I then disagree it is 1,1,2,2,3,3....I say the playback is 1,2,3,4 output at 60Hz.

Anyway....my two cents but it really doesn't matter....most folks will have their own opinion on what looks best to them. ....ala...do you like blonde, brunette, redhead Victoria Secret model. I guess like this subject arguing the details of it really is stupid. With a 1080i HD broadcast and a $4K+ 1920x1080P TV is there really a bad setting ? Anyway....I tried to outline a simple process above for most to just walk through and try and let them make their own choice.

Cheers.....by the way.....I do enjoy the banter....really. :sure:
Actually no thats not correct, I missed your earlier mistake, no, its NOT [1odd,1even], [2odd,2even], etc. the ONLY WAY to output the 60 progressive frames per second is to double each of the 30 deinterlaced 1080i/60 frames before the next one isshown so it's actually [1odd,1even], [[1odd,1even], [2odd,2even], [2odd,2even],........ [29odd,29even], [29odd,29even], [30odd,30even], [30odd,30even] for a grand total of 60 frames shown in one second. Hope that clarifies this a little more.
 

· Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07
Joined
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9,882 Posts
JCO said:
YES there is, its called "native" and your tv design engineers have already
figured out the very best thing to do with all the different possible input resolutions WITH THAT PARTICLAR SET, if you use native then you cant make a big mistake. Sure the set
takes longer to sync to the changes in format rez , but its a small price to pay
rather than watch hours of inferior looking imagery made due to a poor
box setting choice to help speed up channel change sync a second or two.
Look JCO and others, this is not the place to debate all these deep down numbers, please take it to a separate thread or over to AVS where this has been debated for a decade.

THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER for Native on or off or what resolution to set things at. It's all in the eye of the beholder and every TV set/HR20 combo will look different. People simply have to try various combo's to see which one looks the best. All your debate on resolution means nothing to them and will only confuse.

To those wondering what to do, simply keep trying different combo's until you get what looks right to you. And things like setting the HR20 to 720p and letting it downrez 1080i, most likely you won't see the difference. But if you do, then try other settings. Again, there is no best, one size fits all answer.

And I wish JCO and others would just admit to this and take the debate elsewhere, it doesn't help in a thread like this.
 

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No it certainly doesn't. What it does do is bury the real question (and usable advice) in hi-geek techno-babble whose sole apparent purpose is to have the last word, or prove who knows more about the minutia of video specifications.

There is no substitute for trying different things and looking at the display <duh>:rolleyes:

Please take the video spec pee'ing contest over to the avsforum where there are people who care. (the discussion has only been going on for over two years...I'm sure you will find many contentious bedfellows there who will carry on the discussion to your satisfaction.)

In the mean time, people here need help, not techno-babble, and that's precisely what this thread has degenerated into.
 
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