[NashGuy]

So DirecTV might see this as a way to transition people to the streaming side, but doesn't make sense to do that 10 years ahead of time when the tech will be more advanced in 5 - 7 yrs.

DTV may or may not be actively trying to transition current sat customers over to Stream. (I've read at least some sat customers saying they've been aggressively pitched to switch to Stream.) But even if they're not actively encouraging it, DTV knows that tons of their sat customers who have broadband are ditching satellite for something else anyway. This has been going on for years now. So if a customer is going to leave DTV sat, of course they'd prefer it to be for DTV Stream. And having a sat customer already using a box and remote that can work with DTV Stream would make that transition that much more convenient and therefore likely. (If my parents could've kept their old DISH channel package with the on-screen UI, channel numbers and remote control they knew, but cut their bill significantly by switching from satellite to streaming delivery of the service, they'd probably have done it. That wasn't an option, so they switched to YouTube TV.)

While it's true that DTV Stream has a lower profit margin than the satellite service does (for a longtime customer whose installation and hardware costs are already covered), they'd rather you convert immediately from sat to Stream and stick around another few years than leave sat in a few months for YouTube TV, Hulu Live, or just Netflix + OTA and never look back.

 

[harsh]

Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?

Is design that leads primarily to a new approach necessarily innovation?

 

[SledgeHammer]

It's arguable who invented the automobile but the number of innovations since it was invented is so large, as to be impossible to list accurately. But since none of these companies actually INVENTED the automobile, there's absolutely never been any innovation.

No Steve. It means that you still don't understand what basic English words mean. According to US Patents the automobile was invented by Carl Benz in 1886. Was he really the inventor? Well, he was the first one in the patent office at least.

And comparing the assembly line to magic eraser is just absurd.

 

[Steveknj]

No Steve. It means that you still don't understand what basic English words mean. According to US Patents the automobile was invented by Carl Benz in 1886. Was he really the inventor? Well, he was the first one in the patent office at least.

And comparing the assembly line to magic eraser is just absurd.

So tell me, since it's the definition you posted how any one of what I mentioned does not meet any of the conditions in the DEFINITION YOU POSTED. I'll post it again in case you forgot:

innovation
noun
in·no·va·tion | \ ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \

Definition of innovation

1: a new idea, method, or device

Where does it say that an innovation has to be an INVENTION. Where does it say that is has to be extremely different than anything previously. It just says a NEW idea, method or device. Magic Eraser never appeared on a phone app before (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong), until it appeared in the Pixel devices. A tablet such as the iPad, with the ease of use of an iPhone never appeared before. It's a different method, or device. There was never a music device that synced with a separate music purchasing interface before like the iPod and iTunes. And there was never a touchscreen computer that integrated with the OS in a way that the touchscreen PC did with W8. Again method or device. There were lots of innovation behind ALL of those that made it possible, and even if you want to argue that devices like that existed before, there were innovative designs that made them work in ways that made them user friendly and efficiently.

What you are stuck on is that innovation has to be a WIZ BANG gamechanger (it doesn't have to be) or completely new invention (it doesn't have to be). It could be something that just makes your life easier or better, even subtly. I'm not comparing the magic eraser to the assembly line, but those are both examples of innovative design. One changed our lives and one is a nice cool feature on an existing product. But they are both innovative in their own way. Lots of innovation on existing products. Just on autos for example, everything from turn signals, to cruise control. Antilock breaks to automatic breaking. But none of the people who invented those invented the automobile.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?

Nope. Wrong again Steve. I said the digital music player was an innovation. Did I say Steve Jobs innovated on the iPod? Nope. He improved / iterated on it. Lies and more lies from you. I said he innovated in general. The iPhone was innovative and I've noted it was. Was it the first smart phone? No. But it had many inventions and innovations with it. Better luck next time.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Where does it say that an innovation has to be an INVENTION.

For the 17th time, I said innovation generally INVOLVES an invention.

Where does it say that is has to be extremely different than anything previously.

Sorry, that's what innovation means. Whine to the guy who invented English.

Magic Eraser never appeared on a phone app before (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong), until it appeared in the Pixel devices.

That wouldn't fall under your new idea or new device or new method claim. I'm Steving Steve. It's a rehashed idea & method on an existing device.

A tablet such as the iPad, with the ease of use of an iPhone never appeared before. It's a different method, or device.

No its not. A new device doesn't make something innovative. I invented a fork with 17 twines. Bam. Innovation. NOT. You invented a new way to tie your shoes. Bam. Innovation. Not.

There was never a music device that synced with a separate music purchasing interface before like the iPod and iTunes.

That's an innovative FEATURE.

there were innovative designs that made them work in ways that made them user friendly and efficiently.

No, they were improved designs. Making something thin isn't innovative. Is an OLED TV innovative? TVs weren't new. Flat panels weren't new. Smart TVs weren't new. The display technology and the process to make the panel were innovative.

What you are stuck on is that innovation has to be a WIZ BANG gamechanger (it doesn't have to be) or completely new invention (it doesn't have to be).

For the 18th time. That's what the word means lol.

It could be something that just makes your life easier or better, even subtly.

If its reducing the workflow by 3 clicks, then its not innovation. Subtly implies minor improvement.

I'm not comparing the magic eraser to the assembly line, but those are both examples of innovative design.

Yes you are. Besides, I already said magic eraser was innovative when it was invented 30 yrs ago. I said adding it to a phone isn't innovative. It's a new feature. The feature itself is also not innovative.

is a nice cool feature on an existing product.

FINALLY we're getting somewhere. A "nice cool feature on an existing product" isn't innovative by default. It can be, but the magic eraser wouldn't fall under that umberalla.

But they are both innovative in their own way. Lots of innovation on existing products. Just on autos for example, everything from turn signals, to cruise control. Antilock breaks to automatic breaking. But none of the people who invented those invented the automobile.

I've already said you can have innovative features without the product being innovative as a whole.
You're missing that cute little word at the beginning with 3 letters.

 

[Steveknj]

Nope. Wrong again Steve. I said the digital music player was an innovation. Did I say Steve Jobs innovated on the iPod? Nope. He improved / iterated on it. Lies and more lies from you. I said he innovated in general. The iPhone was innovative and I've noted it was. Was it the first smart phone? No. But it had many inventions and innovations with it. Better luck next time.

You really think the iPod was the same as any other MP3 player on the planet? Sorry wrong again. Why did those other MP3 players fail and the iPod succeeded? Simple because of the many innovations on the iPod, from the scroll wheel which made it EASY to navigate, to it's integration with iTunes which allowed for easy purchase of music (not to mention the invention (yes, the invention) of the Podcast which didn't exist before the iPod. Believe me, I owned an earlier MP3 player AND an iPod. There was no comparison in ease of use (though I will say, my old RIO MP3 player sounded better than the first iPod I had. Again, invention of MP3 player, nope, massive innovation on the MP3 player, DEFINITELY.

 

[SledgeHammer]

You really think the iPod was the same as any other MP3 player on the planet? Sorry wrong again. Why did those other MP3 players fail and the iPod succeeded? Simple because of the many innovations on the iPod, from the scroll wheel which made it EASY to navigate, to it's integration with iTunes which allowed for easy purchase of music (not to mention the invention (yes, the invention) of the Podcast which didn't exist before the iPod. Believe me, I owned an earlier MP3 player AND an iPod. There was no comparison in ease of use (though I will say, my old RIO MP3 player sounded better than the first iPod I had. Again, invention of MP3 player, nope, massive innovation on the MP3 player, DEFINITELY.

Wrong again on multiple grounds.

Podcasts were around in the 80s. Initially called Audio Blogging and if you want to nitpick before that just radio lol. And Whatever you want to call them, you'd say they were created. Not invented. Were the Simpons invented? No, they were created. Thus they call youtubers content creators and not content inventors.

iPod was the best selling in the US. Rest of the world, not so much. The scroll wheel was an innovative feature.

Now you're arguing that sales numbers makes something innovative? lol... face palm. Your worst argument yet.

 

[slice1900]

No. They all just ripped off other peoples ideas and iterated / improved on them. First MP3 player was some random Asian dude. First tablet was Microsoft. A digital music player and a tablet in general were innovations. The iPod and iPad may have done it better and may have had some innovative features. And technically Microsoft didn't invent the tablet either, they just built one. It was really thought up by Star Trek writers in the 60s. Maybe The Jetsons had some sort of tablet?

Not sure what your obsession with touchscreen PCs is lol. Who has a touchscreen PC?

Photoshop had your magic eraser 30 yrs ago. Putting it on a phone isn't an innovation.

If your magic eraser could delete this conversation, that would be an innovation.

You're just choosing arbitrary points where you think a "thing" was invented. Where does the Apple Newton figure into your reality? That was the first PDA, and the PDA evolved into the smartphone, so I guess Apple invented the smartphone in the form of the Newton? (just lacking the "phone" part, and camera, and touchscreen and pretty much everything we associate with a smartphone today) Heck, maybe that's the first tablet too, just a smaller version?

Going back even further to who "thought" of something is even more ridiculous. If 10,000 years from now someone figures out a warp drive, does Gene Roddenberry (or some sci fi author who undoubtedly wrote a book with the concept before Star Trek) get the credit for "inventing" it?

There's a big difference in coming up with an "idea", being the first to market something that has limited or no success, and being the first to market something that succeeds and redefines the expectations of consumers of that product category in the future.

 

[Steveknj]

For the 17th time, I said innovation generally INVOLVES an invention.

Generally, perhaps. Always no.

Sorry, that's what innovation means. Whine to the guy who invented English.

Again, that's YOUR definition of innovation, not the definition you posted here. When you show me the definition where innovation=invention, I'll shut up.

No its not. A new device doesn't make something innovative. I invented a fork with 17 twines. Bam. Innovation. NOT. You invented a new way to tie your shoes. Bam. Innovation. Not.

But if I invented a fork that created a new way of using a fork, that's an innovation. The iPod for example created a new way of bringing in music through iTunes. Innovation. And it required a new device, to do it that featured some of the same things previous MP3 players had and lots that was different too/

That's an innovative FEATURE.

You said it yourself, it's an innovation. The feature itself was innovative, thus an innovative idea, thus, it falls under your own definition. The one that came from the dictionary, the one you quoted in this thread.

No, they were improved designs. Making something thin isn't innovative. Is an OLED TV innovative? TVs weren't new. Flat panels weren't new. Smart TVs weren't new. The display technology and the process to make the panel were innovative.

Who said improved designs can't be innovative? OLED TVs were a new design that was innovative to TVs. The TV itself wasn't innovative, but the design was. Thus you have an innovative design of a TV. But you have repeatedly said unless something was invetented it cannot be innovative. TVs had been invented around 100 years ago, So therefore, nothing new on a TV could EVER be innovative. By your own logic.

For the 18th time. That's what the word means lol.

For the 18th time that's not what YOUR QUOTED definition says. It's what YOUR personal definition says. But not the definition you quoted here from the dictionary. Here's some other definitions
From Wikipedia: Innovation is the practical implementation of ideas that result in the introduction of new goods or services or improvement in offering goods or services.[1] ISO TC 279 in the standard ISO 56000:2020 [2] defines innovation as "a new or changed entity realizing or redistributing value". Others have different definitions; a common element in the definitions is a focus on newness, improvement, and spread of ideas or technologies.

Dictionary.com - the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.

Again, the iPod and some of the other things I discussed are not necessarily new things, but certainly the methods behind them are now (and I'm sure you'll completely disagree, but whatever, this is becoming boring).

If its reducing the workflow by 3 clicks, then its not innovation. Subtly implies minor improvement.

Out of context perhaps. In context, it depends. A wired remote works the same as a wireless remote, but the innovation was no wire. Same with WiFi. That's not an innovation?

Yes you are. Besides, I already said magic eraser was innovative when it was invented 30 yrs ago. I said adding it to a phone isn't innovative. It's a new feature. The feature itself is also not innovative.

Who says it's not innovative. Well YOU did. I bet the people at Google think it's an innovative feature. The ability to remove people from your photo ON YOUR PHONE. That seams innovative to me. The tech has been there, porting it to your phone is the innovation. But of course, you don't use it or care about it, so it doesn't count. Plenty of new features require innovation.

FINALLY we're getting somewhere. A "nice cool feature on an existing product" isn't innovative by default. It can be, but the magic eraser wouldn't fall under that umberalla.

Editing a person out of a picture ON YOUR phone seems kinda innovative to me.

I've already said you can have innovative features without the product being innovative as a whole.
You're missing that cute little word at the beginning with 3 letters.

If a feature is innovative, by definition, it's an innovation (now we are getting into silly semantics
From Dictionary.com -Innovative: tending to innovate, or introduce something new or different; characterized by innovation.

Definition of innovative | Dictionary.com

Innovative definition, tending to innovate, or introduce something new or different; characterized by innovation. See more.

www.dictionary.com

 

[Steveknj]

Wrong again on multiple grounds.

Podcasts were around in the 80s. Initially called Audio Blogging and if you want to nitpick before that just radio lol. And Whatever you want to call them, you'd say they were created. Not invented. Were the Simpons invented? No, they were created. Thus they call youtubers content creators and not content inventors.

iPod was the best selling in the US. Rest of the world, not so much. The scroll wheel was an innovative feature.

Now you're arguing that sales numbers makes something innovative? lol... face palm. Your worst argument yet.

You keep saying INNOVATIVE feature. By definition (this time the one I POSTED) that's innovation.

 

[SledgeHammer]

You keep saying INNOVATIVE feature. By definition (this time the one I POSTED) that's innovation.

I've told you like 20 times by now that you can have innovative features without the product itself being innovative.

 

[b4pjoe]

In iOS 16, Visual Look Up lets you lift an object out of a photo or PDF by doing nothing more than tapping and holding. Seems innovative to me. Maybe not to others but to me it is.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Again, that's YOUR definition of innovation, not the definition you posted here. When you show me the definition where innovation=invention, I'll shut up.

I've already told you 37 times that its not. I said an innovation involves an invention.

The iPod for example created a new way of bringing in music through iTunes. Innovation. And it required a new device, to do it that featured some of the same things previous MP3 players had and lots that was different too/

You Steve'd yourself this time. The iPod didn't create a new way of listening to music. It did create a new, integrated way of buying music which was an innovative feature. Certainly didn't require a new device as its just software.

Who said improved designs can't be innovative? OLED TVs were a new design that was innovative to TVs. The TV itself wasn't innovative, but the design was. Thus you have an innovative design of a TV. But you have repeatedly said unless something was invetented it cannot be innovative. TVs had been invented around 100 years ago, So therefore, nothing new on a TV could EVER be innovative. By your own logic.

Didn't I JUST tell you that an OLED display and the process to make it was innovative? while nothing else about the TV was?

 

[SledgeHammer]

In iOS 16, Visual Look Up lets you lift an object out of a photo or PDF by doing nothing more than tapping and holding. Seems innovative to me. Maybe not to others but to me it is.

Changing the clock font on the home screen to some super thick one and then requiring 10+ steps to fix it certainly wasn't innovative. Taking an hour to update my phone wasn't innovative either lol.

Google Lens is innovative. I was on a website and saw a cool stylized pic/poster of an "H" (as in hydrogen) and wanted to see if that was a real thing or the set designer just custom made it. You'd think telling Google Lens to search for pics of an "H" would not work... indeed it found the EXACT stylized pic I was looking for.

 

[b4pjoe]

Changing the clock font on the home screen to some super thick one and then requiring 10+ steps to fix it certainly wasn't innovative. Taking an hour to update my phone wasn't innovative either lol.

If it is taking yo9 10 steps to change it you are doing it wrong.

 

[SledgeHammer]

If it is taking yo9 10 steps to change it you are doing it wrong.

Lol. Aren't you supposed to unlock, then drag the notification view down then long click to get to the customization view? That's great if you already have a customized wall paper, but if not you need to create one, etc.

 

[b4pjoe]

Well you did say to fix it after you had changed it. So that was 3 steps.

 

[CraigerM]

Another thread that gets derailed from its original topic.

 

[James Long]

Fire itself wasn't an invention or innovation since the "sandal wearing dude who lives in the clouds" invented that.

And even He got the idea from His Dad.

Man's control of fire was an innovation.

You are following too strict of a definition. If there has been no innovation since Adam then the guy who created English probably shouldn't have created that word.

That being said, can we move on from interpreting the dictionary?