[SledgeHammer]

to keep a staff of CSRs and train them

Oh man, I missed that part the first time around. Good one Steve!!!

 

[SledgeHammer]

The answer to that is simple......They are paying too much for content and lowballing their prices to bring in customers. it's as simple as that. Nobody ever said that the prices won't go up. They will. So will DirecTV Satellite.

Yup. They raise them every Jan/Feb usually by 4-5% in my case. More if you include my out the door pricing. Streamers raise it by 25%.

All I'm saying is that the prices will eventually balance out between the two, so it'll really come down to your arbitrary personal preference. DirecTV will go away when the sats die if they don't replace them. Or assuming they haven't merged with Dish by then.

Why? Because it costs a lot of money for content and these channels, for now the content providers (i.e. the cable channels) are not going to give a discount even though their viewership has decreased, and ESPECIALLY since advertising will dry up too and they will need to make that up from someone. And if they actually say screw it, we are going to let that channel go, people will scream bloody murder. Especially stations like ESPN which have loyal followings.

AT&T believed they could renegotiate pricing with the combined user base, but that didn't pan out.

I am also in the software business and I fully understand what you are saying. But I also understand business and how it works. Once you have less and less subs, the fixed costs per subscriber go up. They don't magically go away.

Fair enough if you want to spin it that way. $X million / 15M users has a lower cost per user then $X million / 13M users. Even though X = X. A more valid point is they may get better deals with 15M vs. 13M, but who knows how the brackets work there and I suspect if Party A had 15M and Party B had 15M they probably wouldn't be paying Content Provider A the same rate if somebody in Party A belongs to somebody in Provider A's bridge club, etc.

That's why I said, there's potential that it could cost LESS per subscriber eventually for streaming. I would imagine a company with the size and scale of DirecTV might get much better rates than whatever company you work with for things like AWS and so forth and thus those costs are more manageable than the types of costs you are seeing. Obviously I don't know who you work for so that's impossible for me to say for certain.

The company I work for is quite a bit more powerful then DirecTV , so I'd wager we're getting better pricing. The team I'm on is a relatively small cog in the overall machinery and we're paying about $600K/mo in AWS costs just for our stuff.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Whatever "maintaining and replenishing hardware" might add up to, it is paid for 10x over by the $8 per box per month fee you pay, and the $15 per month fee for the Genie.

Directv is much more profitable than Directv Stream, because of all those fees it adds that are almost all profit. That's the biggest reason they don't want to "migrate" anyone off satellite, even if they could guarantee they'd land on Stream and stay there.

Yup.

Outlet fees = free money
PP = mostly free money
WHDVR fee = free money
HD fee = free money
DVR fee = free money
Box $199 fee = free money

 

[SledgeHammer]

Which they would still need to do. Think the HS17 will last forever? Not innovatiing is a death knell for any company.

What innovation has there been on the cell phone in, oh I dunno, 10 yrs? Larger screen? better camera? getting rid of the headphone jack? longer battery life? none of those are exactly innovations. I have an iPhone 11, and they just announced the 14. Same s*** different day. Only thing "innovative" is on the 14 Pro, they have the dynamic island thing which looks kind of cool, but its just a gimmick not an innovative feature.

What innovation has there been on the DVR? DirecTV or otherwise in 10+ years?
Or TVs?
Or PCs?
Or Windows?

Even better, can you name a killer feature that the HR54 doesn't have? Is it the fastest or most modern UI? Well, I don't have any speed complaints with it compared to the HR24 that's for sure.

Catch my drift? Can you name a single thing that has had a game changing innovation in recent times? Everything has just been baby step iterations for a long long time.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Sure. But are you willing to accept what I mention as "killer features" and not dismiss them as unimportant "minor changes"? A 4K UHD output without using a client would be an improvement. Increasing the number of tuners would be an improvement (more of an HS17 limitation since one can add additional tuners to a HR54 by adding additional satellite receivers - up to the limit of SWM). Four up choose your own channels on the same screen would be an improvement. Not new innovations but missing from the HR54 and likely never to be available. The focus is on clients and streaming.

I've always said the HS17 was a terrible design for being headless (as well as its form factor that isn't conducive to general AV furniture design). So I'd classify a server with 4K output as more of "undoing a major f up" . That being said, except for a few documentaries and some sports, there is little to no linear 4K content, so not sure I would classify that as killer if there is nothing to watch with it.

There's plenty of iterative improvements you can make like more tuners and UI improvements. I for one miss the PIG controls.

I haven't upgraded from my iPhone 11 because 12 & 13 & 14 are pretty much the same exact phone. Even Steve Jobs daughter said that haha. I'm on wifi at "work" and at "home" so 5G data isn't a game changer for me. Only thing that may convince me to upgrade is the dynamic island thing, but not sure that's worth dropping $600 on lol. More of a party trick like Siri was.

Not saying I have killer ideas for any of these items either. If I did, I'd be on my yacht now and not on dbstalk haha.

But Steve's comment makes it sound like everybody is releasing huge killer game changer features on a yearly basis except DirecTV which simply isn't true since I'd be hard pressed to name ANY company that has released a game changer feature or product in recent times.

Actually, the one company that has put out a game changer product in recent times that comes to my mind atm is Tesla.

Streaming was an innovation that Netflix started, but that's out of the "recent times" envelope.

 

[SledgeHammer]

The problem with 10 is it would probably be in a server with only clients allowed. I have 14 tuners now that I need on 7 TV's. We record a lot. I could get by with 5 TV's but I need my 14 tuners. If DirecTV would allow me to have 2 HR54's I could get rid of 2 HR-24's and I would have 15 tuners but I don't see them relenting on the one genie limit.

For your use case, sure. We've heard of some with 16 TVs lol. I only have one, so I think we're both outliers and the typical house hold would have 3 - 5.

The REAL headscratcher here is what you record with 14 tuners lol. My 2 week TODO list right now has maybe 6 items .

 

[SledgeHammer]

They offer channel numbers on all supported devices(Fire Stick/ATV etc) Its more of a different way to sort the guide

If I went streaming, I'd want channel numbers. I've memorized the channel numbers for what I watch by now and with the muscle memory on the remote can go there without even looking.

But I'm an outlier in my TV watching habits. I'm impatient, so I like to watch stuff same day. My main use case for recording is to FF through commercials.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Well right now I don't need 14. Once the new shows fire up I pretty much record everything I want to watch and watch later so I can FF through commercials. Of course with the quality of shows these days I may be able to do with fewer tuners than what I previously needed.

Yeah, I do the same with a 15 - 30 min buffer. Still can't imagine there being 14 shows on at the same time.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Yup. I'll be mildly surprised if the forthcoming new client receiver is even exclusive to the satellite side as opposed to being a dual-purpose box that can work standalone for DTV Stream and in conjunction with an HR54 or HS17 for satellite. Hard to see them sinking money into developing new equipment exclusively for the declining sat business, especially with the expectation that sooner or later it will merge with DISH, which is generally regarded as having the superior hardware platform. So I don't expect we'll ever see an HR64 or HS27.

I'd be surprised if its NOT exclusive to the sat side.

1. does tech support have a unified department that supports both the streaming and the sat side today? If they are separate, then you'd have to "train" all those people on the unified box vs. just training the sat peeps.
2. the sat boxes already support streaming (vod) and have for years. The streaming boxes don't support sat and have no need to.
3. adding all the electronics and code to support both service types would make the boxes more expensive when only the sat peeps need the sat bits. And we've seen DirecTV rip out stuff that only the minority wants (like OTA and Tivo).

So DirecTV might see this as a way to transition people to the streaming side, but doesn't make sense to do that 10 years ahead of time when the tech will be more advanced in 5 - 7 yrs.

My guess is its probably a revamped sat client that can fall back to internet during rain fade, etc.

Then again, who says this will ever see the light of day? For the longer term folks here... we're still waiting on that dual tuner PCI card that was "leaked" / "announced" like 15 yrs ago 🤪 . Then again x2, they did end up releasing a mpeg4 compatible DirecTivo.

 

[SledgeHammer]

If I had all day I can list the innovations on the cell phone, on TVs on PCs or Windows in the last 10 years. But I don't. Things get better over time and maybe the things looks "the same to you" but I can guarantee your phone is faster than it was 10 years ago, your TV's resolution is MUCH better, Windows has gone through TWO radical changes in the last 10 years, PCs are all much faster. Does that matter to you? Perhaps not, but to say none of that is new innovation is putting your head in the sand. You don't need RADICAL innovation, you need to stay with the times. You need to improve. DirecTV hasn't had new equipment in MANY years. That's not even MINOR innovation, that's NO innovation. While the competition offers streaming on the same box for example, DirecTV actually took away Pandora (at least I don't see it any more).

Ok, I see the problem. You're confused on the meaning of the word "innovation".

innovation
noun
in·no·va·tion | \ ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \

Definition of innovation

1: a new idea, method, or device

Innovation doesn't mean your PC went from 3.4ghz to 3.5ghz. "Things get better over time" isn't innovation, it's an iterative process. And no, Windows 10 -> Windows 11 isn't an innovation either. It's again an iterative process. Neither is adding a 17th USB port to your motherboard or that you added a inch to your phone or it got a new bezel or an improved camera.

Digital TV is an innovation
HDR / Dolby Vision is an innovation
Smart Phones / TVs / devices is an innovation
OLED is an innovation
Siri/Alexa is an innovation
Electric car is an innovation

Now if you want to restate your argument that DirecTV hasn't iterated on their DVRs in years, that would still be false since they release software updates all the time.

"DirecTV hasn't iterated on their hardware in years" would be an actual factual statement.

And before you start your next bout of flailing, no, I'm not in charge of deciding whether something is an innovation or not, but the fact that you think a "non radical innovation" is actually a real thing says that you don't know what the word means .

 

[SledgeHammer]

So you think there's ZERO innovations in Windows, on PCs, in Cell phones, on TVs. Living in a cave perhaps?

Off the top of my head, innovations on some of the products you mentioned over the last 10 years (2012 forward)

Windows 8 - touchscreen OS, brand new on a PC at this point
PCs - Said touch screens
TVs - you mentioned a few of them. Dolby VIsion 2014
Smart Phones - Under screen fingerprint readers, MANY camera innovations (Magic Eraser on Android Pixel phones), foldable smart phones. 2014

By your own definition, innovation does NOT have to be major. There could be subtle innovation that just makes things better, or something that we the user don't see, but is innovative. For example, the Assembly Line was not consumer fronting but of course had a huge effect on how people got cars.

Lol. I said pretty much the complete opposite of everything you said I said.

Btw, the first PC with a touchscreen was in 1983.

 

[SledgeHammer]

But that wasn't exactly mainstream and not implemented in the same way it was with Windows eight. The first tablets were around that time too, so the iPad wasn't an innovation? The MP3 player preceded the iPod by probably 10 years, so the iPod wasn't innovated. Heck the GUI showed up on computers way before Apple introduced the Mac, so again, the Mac wasn't innovative? Seems you have a VERY narrow definition of what is innovative or not.

No, the guy that invented English does. Clearly, you still don't understand what the word means.

 

[SledgeHammer]

the iPod, iPad and touchscreen PCs are ALL new methods AND new devices. So it meets the criteria. Don't you agree?

No. They all just ripped off other peoples ideas and iterated / improved on them. First MP3 player was some random Asian dude. First tablet was Microsoft. A digital music player and a tablet in general were innovations. The iPod and iPad may have done it better and may have had some innovative features. And technically Microsoft didn't invent the tablet either, they just built one. It was really thought up by Star Trek writers in the 60s. Maybe The Jetsons had some sort of tablet?

Not sure what your obsession with touchscreen PCs is lol. Who has a touchscreen PC?

Photoshop had your magic eraser 30 yrs ago. Putting it on a phone isn't an innovation.

If your magic eraser could delete this conversation, that would be an innovation.

 

[SledgeHammer]

I have a touch screen PC, and there are millions sold. The Surface has sold literally millions of units. Maybe eventually you'll actually type something that's true, but I doubt it. Again, look at YOUR definition of innovate. It's not just NEW ideas. Touchscreens were not a new IDEA, but the method and devices are new, hence meeting your OWN definition. You can't just make up what YOU feel are innovations. That's exactly what you are doing. Innovation DOES NOT EQUAL invent.

Yawn. I can't spend all day explaining to you what words mean. Iteration is not innovation or invention. Innovation generally requires inventions. New products are not innovation or invention by default. You can have innovative features without the product itself being innovative. Ripping off other peoples ideas is not innovation or invention, it's ripping off other peoples ideas.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Use a narrow minded definition and nothing has been innovative since fire ... and maybe not even fire.
The "guy who invented English" wasn't Merriam or Webster.

Fire itself wasn't an invention or innovation since the "sandal wearing dude who lives in the clouds" invented that.

Man's control of fire was an innovation.

 

[SledgeHammer]

I never said Apple never innovated. I said, they haven't innovated recently, since Steve Jobs did the majority of the innovating. Steve Jobs daughter recently made the same comment that her iPhone is pretty much the same as it was years ago. I wouldn't waste my money going from an iPhone 11 -> iPhone 14 because its just minor, incremental improvements like a few extra pixels on the screen and a few incremental camera improvements. The dynamic island on the 14 Pro is cool looking... whether it turns out to be useful or annoying is TBD. I'm trying to determine if my company will pay for my phone upgrade. While its cool looking, I don't know that its $600 (of my money) cool looking. 4G -> 5G is definitely not $600 of innovations for me since I'm on some form of Wifi most of the time.

 

[SledgeHammer]

You must be one of those that believes that Bill Gates wrote most of Microsoft's software from scratch.

Steve Jobs led a rather innovative team to be sure but to suggest that he designed everything is nonsense.

It's well documented that Gates bought the code for DOS for $50k, made a few minor changes and licensed it.

It's also well documented that Apple innovated when Steve Jobs was there and didn't when he wasn't. You make it sound like I'm saying he sat in Autocad and manually designed everything himself. He definitely stood over the peoples shoulders and nitpicked every minor thing.

 

[SledgeHammer]

It's arguable who invented the automobile but the number of innovations since it was invented is so large, as to be impossible to list accurately. But since none of these companies actually INVENTED the automobile, there's absolutely never been any innovation.

No Steve. It means that you still don't understand what basic English words mean. According to US Patents the automobile was invented by Carl Benz in 1886. Was he really the inventor? Well, he was the first one in the patent office at least.

And comparing the assembly line to magic eraser is just absurd.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?

Nope. Wrong again Steve. I said the digital music player was an innovation. Did I say Steve Jobs innovated on the iPod? Nope. He improved / iterated on it. Lies and more lies from you. I said he innovated in general. The iPhone was innovative and I've noted it was. Was it the first smart phone? No. But it had many inventions and innovations with it. Better luck next time.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Where does it say that an innovation has to be an INVENTION.

For the 17th time, I said innovation generally INVOLVES an invention.

Where does it say that is has to be extremely different than anything previously.

Sorry, that's what innovation means. Whine to the guy who invented English.

Magic Eraser never appeared on a phone app before (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong), until it appeared in the Pixel devices.

That wouldn't fall under your new idea or new device or new method claim. I'm Steving Steve. It's a rehashed idea & method on an existing device.

A tablet such as the iPad, with the ease of use of an iPhone never appeared before. It's a different method, or device.

No its not. A new device doesn't make something innovative. I invented a fork with 17 twines. Bam. Innovation. NOT. You invented a new way to tie your shoes. Bam. Innovation. Not.

There was never a music device that synced with a separate music purchasing interface before like the iPod and iTunes.

That's an innovative FEATURE.

there were innovative designs that made them work in ways that made them user friendly and efficiently.

No, they were improved designs. Making something thin isn't innovative. Is an OLED TV innovative? TVs weren't new. Flat panels weren't new. Smart TVs weren't new. The display technology and the process to make the panel were innovative.

What you are stuck on is that innovation has to be a WIZ BANG gamechanger (it doesn't have to be) or completely new invention (it doesn't have to be).

For the 18th time. That's what the word means lol.

It could be something that just makes your life easier or better, even subtly.

If its reducing the workflow by 3 clicks, then its not innovation. Subtly implies minor improvement.

I'm not comparing the magic eraser to the assembly line, but those are both examples of innovative design.

Yes you are. Besides, I already said magic eraser was innovative when it was invented 30 yrs ago. I said adding it to a phone isn't innovative. It's a new feature. The feature itself is also not innovative.

is a nice cool feature on an existing product.

FINALLY we're getting somewhere. A "nice cool feature on an existing product" isn't innovative by default. It can be, but the magic eraser wouldn't fall under that umberalla.

But they are both innovative in their own way. Lots of innovation on existing products. Just on autos for example, everything from turn signals, to cruise control. Antilock breaks to automatic breaking. But none of the people who invented those invented the automobile.

I've already said you can have innovative features without the product being innovative as a whole.
You're missing that cute little word at the beginning with 3 letters.