Please Help With Proper Format?

1607 Views 14 Replies 7 Participants Last post by njs092682, Jul 14, 2008

Flyhigh

Discussion Starter · Jul 9, 2008

I have a Samsung LN52A650 running off a HR-21 through a Yamaha RX-V663 (which doesn't do any video processing) with HDMI cables at both ends. What is the best way to configure my equipment for the proper formats of HD and SD. Here is the problem I'm running into: On the HR-21 I'm set to "Native On", and "Original format" so the TV gets the picture as it was originally broadcast. The HR-21 shows the TV is set to receive all resolutions. My tv is set to "just scan" which displays the picture in its broadcast format. 720p and 1080i are great but SD channels broadcast in 480i get stretched to fill the screen. To keep the original ratio, I have to set those channels to 4:3 on the TV's menu which it remembers for all 480i signals. The problem is that if I now hit guide on the HR-21, it too becomes shown squished to 4:3. Shouldn't there be some logic to keep the guide screen 16:9 even though the program is 4:3? What should my settings be? I don't have this problem on my other HD TV (Optoma HD7100 projector) with the same settings on my HR-20(same settings as the HR21).

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BattleScott

· #2 · Jul 9, 2008

1) set the DVR output to Pillar Box, not Original Format. The "original format" setting does not do what the name implies, it outputs the viseo based on the screen format selected in the setup.

2) I don't think 'Just Scan' on the TV is the setting you want. Typically a Justification setting will expand the programming to fit the screen. You want a setting that displays the natvie signal, usually something like "full".

GregLee

· #3 · Jul 9, 2008

Flyhigh said:
My tv is set to "just scan" which displays the picture in its broadcast format.

"Just" on my Panasonic TV refers to a stretch mode where the center is stretched a little less. It does not mean original broadcast format. You should be able to find a format on your TV that pillar-boxes 4:3 SD pictures but uses 16:9 for widescreen HD pictures.

veryoldschool

· #4 · Jul 9, 2008

Flyhigh said:
I have a Samsung LN52A650 running off a HR-21 through a Yamaha RX-V663 (which doesn't do any video processing) with HDMI cables at both ends. What is the best way to configure my equipment for the proper formats of HD and SD. Here is the problem I'm running into: On the HR-21 I'm set to "Native On", and "Original format" so the TV gets the picture as it was originally broadcast. The HR-21 shows the TV is set to receive all resolutions. My tv is set to "just scan" which displays the picture in its broadcast format. 720p and 1080i are great but SD channels broadcast in 480i get stretched to fill the screen. To keep the original ratio, I have to set those channels to 4:3 on the TV's menu which it remembers for all 480i signals. The problem is that if I now hit guide on the HR-21, it too becomes shown squished to 4:3. Shouldn't there be some logic to keep the guide screen 16:9 even though the program is 4:3? What should my settings be? I don't have this problem on my other HD TV (Optoma HD7100 projector) with the same settings on my HR-20(same settings as the HR21).

So your TV is now set to display 480 in 4:3, but you want it to display the guide in 16:9? The only real way to do this is go to pillarbox, so your TV displays 16:9 and the DVR adds the bars to the 4:3 program. This way the DVR can display the guide in 16:9 and the program in 4:3.

GregLee

· #5 · Jul 9, 2008

veryoldschool said:
So your TV is now set to display 480 in 4:3, but you want it to display the guide in 16:9? The only real way to do this is go to pillarbox, so your TV displays 16:9 and the DVR adds the bars to the 4:3 program. This way the DVR can display the guide in 16:9 and the program in 4:3.

Go to pillarbox for the DVR, that is. This is what works for me: in System Setup > HDTV, Native is Off, Screen Format is Pillar Box, TV Ratio is Widescreen 16:9, and the only TV resolution enabled is 1080i. This way the TV never does any stretching of the picture, the Guide is widescreen, and the DVR does not do stretching either (unless you've asked for it using the remote's Aspect button).

veryoldschool

· #6 · Jul 9, 2008

GregLee said:
Go to pillarbox for the DVR, that is. This is what works for me: in System Setup > HDTV, Native is Off, Screen Format is Pillar Box, TV Ratio is Widescreen 16:9, and the only TV resolution enabled is 1080i. This way the TV never does any stretching of the picture, the Guide is widescreen, and the DVR does not do stretching either (unless you've asked for it using the remote's Aspect button).

What you have with this setup is all of the scaling being done by the DVR, which may be just the way you like it, but for the OP, some changes can be made to keep the format unaltered: 480 [i or p], 720p, 1080i, pillarbox, TV to 16:9, native on. This will send HD & SD in "original" resolution, and pillarbars added to the SD, so the guide is full screen and yet the 4:3 is undistorted. In this setup, the DVR isn't scaling and the TV is [to fit the display size].

cartrivision

· #7 · Jul 9, 2008

As others have pointed out, to get full width guide and other graphics over 4:3 proramming, the DVR output format must be set to "Pillarbox".

With that DVR setting, your Samsung can then be set to either Just Scan or 16:9.

Flyhigh

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 10, 2008

Thanks guys. You've helped a lot. I definitely want my TV doing the scaling instead of the HR21. I'm now sending sending my tv Native on, Pillar Box, 16:9, and have all resolutions checked off. I have my TV set to "Just Scan" which on the Samsung LN52A650 does 1:1 pixel mapping. This shows the complete picture as it was broadcast without shaving off anything for overscan. Here is an interesting article about 1:1 pixel mapping. In the real world, I paused a scene from Letterman and flipped back and forth between Just Scan and 16:9. I could see much more of the picture in just scan. I could see more of the couch on the left and more off to Dave's left as well. It was almost like those commercials that show you what your missing in a hockey game if you don't have High Def. Anyway, everything looks great now and the guide comes up 16:9 even on channels my tv leaves at 4:3.

What was confusing to me was the wording on the HR-21. As Battle Scott pointed out "Original Format" does NOT do what the name implies. Once I switched to Pillar Box, everything worked out perfectly. Thanks for all your help.

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veryoldschool

· #9 · Jul 10, 2008

Flyhigh said:
What was confusing to me was the wording on the HR-21. As Battle Scott pointed out "Original Format" does NOT do what the name implies. Once I switched to Pillar Box, everything worked out perfectly. Thanks for all your help.

Well whether it does or not is really dependent on what TV you're using.
It does send a 4:3 program in 4:3, when the DVR is set to a 16:9 TV, where as with pillarbox it doesn't.
"I'd say" it's more your perception of "original" than it not working.
It might help to understand what happened before this option was added.
Some users wanted their TV to do the scaling and have their TV stretch a 4:3. To do this with a 16:9 TV, they needed to set the DVR to a 4:3 TV so it would send a "true" 4:3 image [without any pillarbox]] for SD and then set HD to stretch so it wouldn't have letterbox bars.
Another option [depending on how their TV worked] would be to set the DVR to 16:9 & stretch, where the DVR would output a stretch image, which the TV would "compress" and then use its own stretch mode.
Some TVs trigger off the 480 resolution and other trigger off the 16:9 or 4:3 flag being sent.

I use original format for SD programs that are letterbox. My TV default for 4:3 is zoom, and when I watch a letterbox SD program, one press, of one remote, now adjusts the image to fill me display, though the guide is now "zoomed" also.

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cygnusloop

· #10 · Jul 10, 2008

Just to reinforce what VOS said, "Original Format" does just what the name says, and works exactly as it should.

BattleScott said:
1) set the DVR output to Pillar Box, not Original Format. The "original format" setting does not do what the name implies, it outputs the viseo based on the screen format selected in the setup.

This statement is not correct. When set to pillarbox, the HR2x is modifying the original format of an SD program by appending 40 pixels worth of pillar to each side of the frame. Setting to pillarbox may accomplish what the user wants, but it is NOT the original format sent by the broadcaster. It is a 640x480 frame transformed into a 720x480 frame by the HR2x.

Additionally, your statement that the HR2x "outputs the video based on the screen format selected in setup" is also false.

What "Original Format" does is send either a 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio flag via HDMI based on the format of the tuned channel. It does not affect the video in any way. Some HDTV's see and use this flag, others (Samsung included) do not. This format option was added because some HDTV's and scalers were unable to use their advanced formatting and scaling options on a signal that had a 16:9 flag. Before "Original Format" was added, the aspect ratio flag was based on whether or not the user selected 4:3 or 16:9 on the TV ratio tab under HDTV in the system setup menu.

BattleScott said:
2) I don't think 'Just Scan' on the TV is the setting you want. Typically a Justification setting will expand the programming to fit the screen. You want a setting that displays the natvie signal, usually something like "full".

On a Samsung, "Just Scan" will display whatever signal it receives across the full 16:9 frame with out any overscan (or with very little overscan if the Samsung is a RP HDTV). For an HD program, this accomplishes exactly what the OP wants. 1:1 pixel mapping for a 1080i program.

The 16:9 option on a Sammy will show a 16:9 input with about 5-7% overscan. If 16:9 (or Just Scan) is selected when the incoming signal is 4:3, it will be stretched.

If the 4:3 option on the Samsung is selected, it will append TV generated pillars to whatever signal is incoming.

Personal opinion, the HR2x pillarbox mode is very poor. I think the best way to watch 4:3 programming is to let the HDTV generate the pillarbars. The HR2x's pillar mode does not include any overscan. This results in a lot of "junk" in the gutters of the 4:3 frame being visible. Most HDTV generated bars include ~5% of overscan which hides this "junk". Additionally, the bars generated by my TV are much blacker that the HR2x bars, and much less distracting in a dark room.

The tradeoff is, of course, that when your TV is generating the bars, the guide/list is also going to be displayed between the TV generated pillar bars. For me, this is a non-issue that is well worth the improved viewing environment provided by my HDTV's 4:3 mode.

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Flyhigh

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jul 11, 2008

cygnusloop said:
The tradeoff is, of course, that when your TV is generating the bars, the guide/list is also going to be displayed between the TV generated pillar bars. For me, this is a non-issue that is well worth the improved viewing environment provided by my HDTV's 4:3 mode.

Thanks Cygnusloop, your post really cleared things up. My other HDTV must be one of those that use the flag so this has always been a non issue until the Samsung. With pillar box set I am achieving what I want as far as the guide remaining 16:9 while 4:3 remains 4:3. I can live with the 4:3 guide however if the trade off in picture quality is worth it. I'll use each mode for a week and see which one works out best for me.

njs092682

· #12 · Jul 14, 2008

Flyhigh said:
I have a Samsung LN52A650 running off a HR-21 through a Yamaha RX-V663 (which doesn't do any video processing) with HDMI cables at both ends. What is the best way to configure my equipment for the proper formats of HD and SD. Here is the problem I'm running into: On the HR-21 I'm set to "Native On", and "Original format" so the TV gets the picture as it was originally broadcast. The HR-21 shows the TV is set to receive all resolutions. My tv is set to "just scan" which displays the picture in its broadcast format. 720p and 1080i are great but SD channels broadcast in 480i get stretched to fill the screen. To keep the original ratio, I have to set those channels to 4:3 on the TV's menu which it remembers for all 480i signals. The problem is that if I now hit guide on the HR-21, it too becomes shown squished to 4:3. Shouldn't there be some logic to keep the guide screen 16:9 even though the program is 4:3? What should my settings be? I don't have this problem on my other HD TV (Optoma HD7100 projector) with the same settings on my HR-20(same settings as the HR21).

Hey, I have a separate, but related problem to your situation, and I was wondering if you or anyone on here could hlep me out. I have the same audio receiver you do...just got it last week. I have a HR20-100 paired with it (running hdmi from it to the yamaha to my samsung 40 inch 1080p tv). Love the receiver, but I've noticed a not-so-good but strange thing since i set up the receiver saturday. Eve since I hooked up the HR20 up to the yamaha, TNT HD is breaking up (video and audio) very badly ever since I did this. All the rest of my HD and SD channels look and sound just fine. My signal strengths are all in the 90's on my HD DVR. It's just that one channel...even TBS HD is fine. Is this really strange, or is this a known problem? What should I do? The breakup looks much like you would get when you get a bad storm and the channels start to go out due to poor signal strength. It's really bad too...almsot completely breaks up once every five seconds or so. Any ideas/suggestions would be much appreciated...I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. It's really weird that its just the one channel.

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njs092682

· #13 · Jul 14, 2008

anyone?

Flyhigh

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 14, 2008

It's odd that it would be an issue with the Yamaha being that it is just one channel that is effected. If your set up allows, try running the HDMI from the HR20 directly into your TV to see if it happens with or without the A/V receiver in the loop. If that isn't possible, you could try using component cables to see if the issue may be related to HDMI.

njs092682

· #15 · Jul 14, 2008

Flyhigh said:
It's odd that it would be an issue with the Yamaha being that it is just one channel that is effected. If your set up allows, try running the HDMI from the HR20 directly into your TV to see if it happens with or without the A/V receiver in the loop. If that isn't possible, you could try using component cables to see if the issue may be related to HDMI.

yeah, i thought it was odd as well. It works fine when you take the receiver out of the equation. I dont get this at all. Strange...

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