[HoTat2]

Hey, not greatly familiar with Dish stuff, but if the Hopper is receiving the standard satellite input frequency stack of 950-1450 Mhz and 1650-2150 Mhz from the dish antenna, then it can't be using the 1 Ghz range MoCA frequencies to communicate with the Joeys (BTW, I agree, silly names).

Therefore, is Dish also using frequencies below 950 Mhz in the OTA range like DIRECTV's DECAs to communicate to the Joeys?

 

[HoTat2]

I see a new box - Solo/Duo Node box - could have filters to re-use same freq in different cables: to XiP813 and to 110s.

Come to think of it P. Smith, I wonder if those Solo or Duo node boxes actually translate the Hopper's satellite input to a whole different frequency scheme since Dish's conventional approach of feeding a stacked 950-1450 and 1650-2150 Mhz would cause a problem with a now third tuner in the mix since how does it get it's needed channel set if different from the other two?

Really need to see the specs. to understand this better.

 

[HoTat2]

Has it been said out of the 2TB on the harddrive how much will the customer partition be vs. the Dish partition? I ask since the Hopper supports "Dish Unplugged" which according to their PR says:

So if they are force downloading 'hundreds of the most popular movies and TV shows to the hard drive' how much space is that taking out of that 2GB?

As far as known its 1 TB available to the user and 1 TB allocated for reserved space for purely DN controlled stuff.

Now how much of this 1 TB of reserved space is then set aside for "Dish Unplugged" programming, PrimeTime Anytime (PTAT), or other features are unknown AFAIK.

 

[HoTat2]

Sure, studying MoCA specs would help; for sure I know the communication MoCA channel between 813 and 110 using 256QAM modulation. I think MoCA should regimenting frequencies ... Lets check those spec...

After some more thought P. Smith, if I were a betting man (which I'm really not BTW, since I've mostly been a loser whenever I've gambled in life ), I would wager that for the XiP Solo Node with two coax drops illustrated coming from a Dish 1000.x is to allow access to three 500 Mhz DPP blocks (the fourth block is discarded or ignored) for the three tuners on the Hopper.

The difference I think is that since only one coax cable feeds the Hopper, there seems to be no choice but for the Node to frequency translate one of the DPP blocks to up above 2150 Mhz to maybe 2350-2850 Mhz (assuming the same standard 200 Mhz guard band between the blocks) for the third tuner.

This would then certainly mandate that the MoCA frequencies used for the Hopper to communicate with the Joeys is somewhere below 950 Mhz, ala DIRECTV's DECA technology which is centered at 550 Mhz.

And if so, as with DIRECTV's WHDVR service, its bye-bye to OTA diplexing for this system.

Now photos of the "XiP Duo Node" shows three inputs for drop lines from a Dish 1000.x. This appears to be for a setup with two Hoppers to allow subscribers (who wish to pay for an addtional unit ) a combined total of more than six tuners with three DPP blocks split to each Hopper satellite output of the Node to supply them.

And I think its likely that the two Hopper output ports on the Duo Node are internally connected by a data crossover bridge so the opposite Hopper/Joey network can communicate with the other. That is in a way similar to DIRECTV's DECA crossover bridge on the SWiM-16.

So what do you, (or anyone else) think?

 

[HoTat2]

I get the same error and don't recall how the page was titled. Searching for xip813 yields no results.
There's a plausible theory. Dish already does that for some commercial installations with a stacker/de-stacker pair.

Yeah ...

And if my theory is correct its the limitation of DN's traditional signal stacking approach this way that was probably a contributing factor in the decision for only three satellite tuners per Hopper. Even if we were to grant P. Smith's suggestion of a reduced guard band of say 100 Mhz between the DPP blocks. To accommodate something like five tuners in one Hopper as with DIRECTV's HR34 would mean coax frequencies extending up to 3850 Mhz for feeding all those tuners in one Hopper.

Therefore, the only reasonable (though perhaps more cumbersome and costly), way to add more tuners in Dish's MRV system is to add another Hopper effectively in parallel though the use of the XiP Duo Node.

 

[HoTat2]

I'm told you won't be able to diplex OTA to the in-home coax network (it would need to be broken out before the XiP node) due to possible interference with the MoCA signal. What is the freq range of OTA? ...

Before the DTV transition it was 54-806 Mhz for TV channels 2-69.

Post-transition is now 54-698 Mhz for TV channels 2-51.

And this is additional confirmation of what I have suggested that the Hopper and Joeys are using a sub-950 Mhz frequency band for MoCA communication same as with DIRECTV. In fact they may even use the same band of 550 ± 25Mhz. So look for some Dish subs to complain as well about the loss of OTA diplexing.

Say BobaBird, if you have the time can you find out if there is any Dish rep. on the ground there at CES who can confirm my other theory about the XiP Node as to whether it internally frequency translates one of the DPP blocks up to above 2150 Mhz for the third tuner of the Hopper?

 

[HoTat2]

Umm, why you're looking for higher freq ?
Using two cables with DPP technology give you FOUR 500 MHz bands (ie one half of any sat) what is more then enough for three sat tuners.
For Duo Node - three cables provide SIX bands - exactly a number of tuners.

Yes P. Smith, but there is only one satellite coax cable from a Node feeding a Hopper. So how would you get the third 500 Mhz DPP band block for the third tuner on one cable if not through frequency stacking it somewhere above 2150 Mhz?

 

[HoTat2]

If one were to disable the PTAT feature, would you then have 6 tuners to record from or 3 or some other number?

Three tuners per Hopper, with the XiP Duo Node allowing two Hoppers max. per install for a combined six tuners.

Additional tuners to the Hopper from an optional OTA module, if it exist, has not yet been determined.

 

[HoTat2]

Hopper Internet Connector. I believe it is an add on for those folks that don't have an internet connection available at the location where the Hopper or Joey's are installed???

Seems basically the same function as DIRECTV's counterpart the "CCK" (Cinema Connection Kit"), which allows in this case the entire Hopper/Joey coax network to access the internet or ethernet home network through a single point.

IOW, its a shared MoCA to ethernet crossover bridge.

 

[HoTat2]

I'm also curious as to whether the Hopper/Joey MoCA communication protocol that is used complies with the official RVU alliance so that other manufacturers may incorporate the ability to connect to the Hopper in their different products as well, or is it a strictly proprietary "RVU-like" one which only the Joeys can connect to and understand?

I mean I do see EchoStar listed as a "contributor" to the alliance, but nothing which specifically mentions Dish involved anywhere in it.

 

[HoTat2]

DISH doesn't have to be because they don't make the hardware, I'm not sure about the software, so unless they don't have Echostar do their software they wouldn't have to be listed. The companies that make the technology not necessarily the end user company is what would be listed in the alliance.

OK, however come to think of it though, in everything Dish has said so far about the Hopper/Joey system I don't recall them ever referring to the term "RVU" when speaking of the type of communication between the Hopper and Joey.

Nothing beyond a bland mention of "MoCA" communication to a "thin client" (the XiP110 "Joey"). So maybe that implies it is a closed proprietary protocol delivering the equivalent functionality of RVU, but intended and understood only by the Joeys.

 

[HoTat2]

The Swap should be available wherever the PIP is available.

Didn't I read that PIP is available on all Hoppers and Joey's?

PiP is on the Hopper, but not the Joey.

 

[HoTat2]

Does the new Hopper have a spot for the OTA antenna? I can get more locals from the town farther from me and like those better than my close locals.

It is strongly rumored to be a USB connected OTA module which in that particular respect makes it like DIRECTV's AM21.

However Dish so far has released no official details for it.

 

[HoTat2]

Conventional ad hoc digital sat delivery uses 4 slots (directly adjacent slices of the bandwidth each on a separate frequency) per transponder, typically fed ad hoc by 4 separate uplinks from separate sources, which allows 4 different clients to timeshare the transponder on demand at any given time, simultaneously. ...

Just to note:

This part of your post describing "Conventional ad hoc digital satellite delivery" actually sounds like "Frequency Division Multiple Access" (or FDMA).

Therefore shouldn't the last portion quoted above read as;

... typically fed ad hoc by 4 separate uplinks from separate sources, which allows 4 different clients to "frequency share" the transponder on demand at any given time?

 

[HoTat2]

... Doesn't it leave the possibility for it to be downloaded on a non-live situation?

No, as far as known and been demonstrated, PTAT records via a single tuner the four major network telecasts concurrently during the local prime time viewing hours of 8PM-11PM ± any user selectable over or under-run time padding adjustments, to a reserved portion of the HDD on the Hopper.

 

[HoTat2]

...
2. According to the ces video all joeys see all tuners on both hoppers. That's the whole idea of less tuners each.

Correct;

Apparently the "XiP Duo Node" device which can feed two Hoppers in parallel has an internal MoCA crossover bridge which allows them or their attached Joeys to communicate with the other.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=64889&d=1304659604