[babzog]

Hey folks,

Setup:

I'll have about 130' of coax from the dish (on a tower) to the wiring panel in the home, plus 10' to 30' inside the home. There will be two grounding blocks in the 130' run - one at the base of the tower and one at the service entrance of the home.

I might also put in a wallplate to neaten things up (currently, coax just come up through the floor).

I've been told that, over the lengths I'm considering, I will experience about 10dB of loss. Plus another dB for each of the grounding blocks. I'm assuming there will be another dB of loss at the wallplate.

So, I'm facing 12-13 dB of loss, plus perhaps a bit more to account for the home wiring lengths (and I've not yet factored in losses from a powered multiswitch or signal locker).

Question:

What are the implications of this much loss?

 

[NYCEGUY01]

Hey folks,

Setup:

I'll have about 130' of coax from the dish (on a tower) to the wiring panel in the home, plus 10' to 30' inside the home. There will be two grounding blocks in the 130' run - one at the base of the tower and one at the service entrance of the home.

I might also put in a wallplate to neaten things up (currently, coax just come up through the floor).

I've been told that, over the lengths I'm considering, I will experience about 10dB of loss. Plus another dB for each of the grounding blocks. I'm assuming there will be another dB of loss at the wallplate.

So, I'm facing 12-13 dB of loss, plus perhaps a bit more to account for the home wiring lengths (and I've not yet factored in losses from a powered multiswitch or signal locker).

Question:

What are the implications of this much loss?

Basically none. All you really have to wory about is voltage drop. With too much voltage drop the LNB or switch wont be able to switch between even and odd's properly.

Your length's are not out of line. I am running around 300-350ft between my dish and 6x8 then another 25-30 to the reciever and it works perfect. I had to use some pole mounts and get out past some trees.

 

[joe diamond]

Other implications would be that someone is watching TV on a satellite driven system...........but what I meant to mention was that you can skip the ground at the pole. Just ground at the main ground bond near the E meter and near (10 ft.) where the cable enters the building. Your run is not as long as some that are working......leave service loops IF you neet to insert a stacker, just in case.

Joe

 

[jdspencer]

Some have used RG11 for long runs. Less power loss per foot.

But, this was discussed in your earlier thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133984

 

[harsh]

but what I meant to mention was that you can skip the ground at the pole.

This is exceedingly poor advice. It is against code to not ground the dish and you should never advise against code.

 

[harsh]

I might also put in a wallplate to neaten things up (currently, coax just come up through the floor).

Do you want optimal signal or a "pretty" installation. Each break you put in the cable reduces both its signal and power carrying capacity.

How about you just ask DIRECTV for a free professional installation and be done with it?

 

[AntAltMike]

... I'm facing 12-13 dB of loss, plus perhaps a bit more to account for the home wiring lengths (and I've not yet factored in losses from a powered multiswitch or signal locker).

Question:

What are the implications of this much loss?

You could put in another 200 feet of coax or a 20dB attenuator in the line and probably see no change in the so-called signal strength numbers that your receiver's "signal strength" test displays. Your structural signal losses are inconsequential.

 

[Birdman79]

This is exceedingly poor advice. It is against code to not ground the dish and you should never advise against code.

He doesn't have to ground it twice ,if he's using dual coax with ground.He can ground the dish with that to the ground block and then bond to it to the power box or copper strand.

 

[harsh]

He doesn't have to ground it twice ,if he's using dual coax with ground.He can ground the dish with that to the ground block and then bond to it to the power box or copper strand.

Code says that the drain wire must go all the way to the bonding point, and not "relay" through the ground block.

 

[Grentz]

There should only be one ground point by code though, you are not supposed to have dual ground points for the same system (so the dish and cables should be grounded to the same point).

 

[babzog]

Some have used RG11 for long runs. Less power loss per foot.

But, this was discussed in your earlier thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133984

I know... however, "Scott in FL" suggested I pose this specific question (implications of this level of loss) to the installers, which is why I posted this as a separate Q.

 

[babzog]

Code says that the drain wire must go all the way to the bonding point, and not "relay" through the ground block.

There should only be one ground point by code though, you are not supposed to have dual ground points for the same system (so the dish and cables should be grounded to the same point).

The tower is grounded by itself (each leg to it's own rod, each rod bonded in a ring and all that bonded to the house ground). With the dish mounted on the tower (galv steel), are you suggesting that the dish should have it's own ground wire running to the grounding rod and the grounding blocks should also have their own wire to the rod? Or, can I simply run a ground wire from the dish to the tower (and pronounce the dish grounded because the tower is grounded) and then run a ground wire from the steel enclosure containing the grounding blocks (treating the enclosure as a "bulkhead" type of grounding point) to the rod (and repeating this last hookup at the house service entrance)?

Either way is fine with me... just means I need to pick up a bit more wire if I need separate wires for the dish.

 

[babzog]

Do you want optimal signal or a "pretty" installation. Each break you put in the cable reduces both its signal and power carrying capacity.

Fair enough. I'd ideally like both but am not really too fussed about wires coming through the floor where they're not seen.

How about you just ask DIRECTV for a free professional installation and be done with it?

Well, that's kinda harsh, don't you think? I'm having a lot more fun[1] doing this myself, getting excellent advice along the way from the great folks here, on the right way to do this project.... which is all much more appealing to me than having some Joe Friday staple wires all over my house or charge me for fishing wire.. work that I can do myself with a little know-how (or, more likely, simply refusing this kind of uber custom work).

[1] However, digging the trench for the conduit, today, was not fun. Esp when you find a foot and a half of pit run that was used as backfill. Took all afternoon to dig the thing... then a T-storm rolled in as we were laying the conduit. Sigh.

 

[babzog]

Basically none. All you really have to wory about is voltage drop. With too much voltage drop the LNB or switch wont be able to switch between even and odd's properly.

Your length's are not out of line. I am running around 300-350ft between my dish and 6x8 then another 25-30 to the reciever and it works perfect. I had to use some pole mounts and get out past some trees.

You could put in another 200 feet of coax or a 20dB attenuator in the line and probably see no change in the so-called signal strength numbers that your receiver's "signal strength" test displays. Your structural signal losses are inconsequential.

This is great! That was something else I was wondering (if the signal meters would show anything).

Thank you (and to others as well, who've offered thoughts on this (and related) topic!

 

[thespaceghost]

Your length's are not out of line. I am running around 300-350ft between my dish and 6x8 then another 25-30 to the reciever and it works perfect. I had to use some pole mounts and get out past some trees.

is this HD or standard picture? You can exceed quite a bit with SD picture.

 

[harsh]

You can exceed quite a bit with SD picture.

OK, I'll bite. What are you talking about?

 

[brant]

The tower is grounded by itself (each leg to it's own rod, each rod bonded in a ring and all that bonded to the house ground). With the dish mounted on the tower (galv steel), are you suggesting that the dish should have it's own ground wire running to the grounding rod and the grounding blocks should also have their own wire to the rod? Or, can I simply run a ground wire from the dish to the tower (and pronounce the dish grounded because the tower is grounded) and then run a ground wire from the steel enclosure containing the grounding blocks (treating the enclosure as a "bulkhead" type of grounding point) to the rod (and repeating this last hookup at the house service entrance)?

Either way is fine with me... just means I need to pick up a bit more wire if I need separate wires for the dish.

from what I gather, you have bonded the tower to your service:

the dish attached to this tower is grounded (unless somehow insulated).

All you need to do is install a grounding block at the point of entry and connect that to the intersystem bonding point.

_______________________________________________________

it was mentioned to let direct do a free install; i am a dish customer and I know the 'free install' is limited to a certain amount of coax, and I'm almost positive they will not run your coax through the conduit free of charge.

 

[Tom Robertson]

The tower is grounded by itself (each leg to it's own rod, each rod bonded in a ring and all that bonded to the house ground). With the dish mounted on the tower (galv steel), are you suggesting that the dish should have it's own ground wire running to the grounding rod and the grounding blocks should also have their own wire to the rod? Or, can I simply run a ground wire from the dish to the tower (and pronounce the dish grounded because the tower is grounded) and then run a ground wire from the steel enclosure containing the grounding blocks (treating the enclosure as a "bulkhead" type of grounding point) to the rod (and repeating this last hookup at the house service entrance)?

Either way is fine with me... just means I need to pick up a bit more wire if I need separate wires for the dish.

If the tower is grounded and bonded correctly, and the dish base is allowed to bond to the tower, you are in great shape, as far as I know.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Tom Robertson]

from what I gather, you have bonded the tower to your service:

the dish attached to this tower is grounded (unless somehow insulated).

All you need to do is install a grounding block at the point of entry and connect that to the intersystem bonding point.

_______________________________________________________

it was mentioned to let direct do a free install; i am a dish customer and I know the 'free install' is limited to a certain amount of coax, and I'm almost positive they will not run your coax through the conduit free of charge.

He's in a gray area where a couple of nice cold softdrinks will likely cover a lot.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[pstr8ahead]

is this HD or standard picture? You can exceed quite a bit with SD picture.

OK, I'll bite. What are you talking about?

I think the question should be Is it a KaKu dish? The Ku frequencies from an 18" dish wont attenuate as rapidly as the Ka Highs will.