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First off, let me say I do not expect DTV and Tivo ever to mend fences despite liberty/News COrp swap. I am not intending to start a rumor or specualtion that my scenario would occur.

I am asking for the opinion specifically from those that seem to be glad Tivo and Dtv do not have a partnership to build integrated boxes going forward.

WHY?

I have seen many people express posts stating they are happy that Tivo will (likely) never make another box for DTV. I don't get this.

I understand if you do not like the speed of previous Tivos, particularly HR10-250.
I understand if you do not liek the GUI, as is.
I understand that you like PIG or other features HR20 has implemented.

But I would assume a next- gen DTivo, might have those features, increased speed and maybe even a different GUi.

Many seem to forgive DVR+ for a year+ of issues, but then like to explain that Tivo had issues a few YEARS ago. The rip on the speed or the fact there are no new features...all objections that would be moot if there was a new co-branded Dtivo.

People are excited about a new GUI for the R15 (cause that's the most pressing need), but detest the iconic/cartoonish Tivo GUI. Why couldn't Tivo's next-gen Gui be improved? Especially with DTV involvement?

Now i know this will never happen, (unless Liberty buys Tivo), I just want to understand why there is so much Tivo hatred. often anti-DVR+ posts are dismissed simply as Tivo lovers....and of course there are some. But often I see DVR+ posters as vehemently anti- TIvo.

As I have never needed to spend time on Tivo support boards, it is possible, I got one of the few that work great..I honestly don't know. I might have the "earl's machine" of Dtivos.

Just trying to understand why some are so greatful there will never be a new Dtivo.
 

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I wouldn't classify myself as a TiVo hater... I am just no longer a TiVovangilst like I used to be. I have still to this day, still recommended the TiVo, Inc. products to individuals...


For me one of the problems I see, if there is an alternative out there... is stalling of the feature set. Instead of making sure that a feature is compatible with the product "you" control, as well as a third party...

Or having to run two different feature sets...
It makes it hard for one of them to ever reach that next level.

I mean that was part of the problem with DTivo vs SA-TiVo

Since TiVo, Inc... had FULL controll over SA-TiVo, it's feature set grew by leaps and bounds... but the DTiVo stalled... why, DirecTV has a LOT of factors to consider, part of which is $ related... I mean the "rumors" where that for some of the SA featuers, TiVo Inc, wanted more moeny.

So for me, I don't think it should be a hatred of TiVo, Inc... and for what they have done... they pretty much "made" the DVR what it is today.

But then on the flip side, there has to be a reason why pretty much EVERY carrier out there only offers a version they control... (Yes I am aware of Comcast and Cox, but they are not available yet).
 

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Certainly don't hate Tivo - but I prefer the R15 in general over the R10 (I have both). Over the past year I have had only one instance where I did not get a recording on an R15 that I did get on the Tivo (where both were set to record), and was glad the Tivo recorded it properly.

Unlike most, I learned the R15 UI first, then learned the Tivo. So I went the opposite way of most, which is probably why I prefer the R15 UI.

Moving forward, I like the features and capabilities DirecTV is trying to add to it's equipment. I think they are moving in the right direction. However I do agree that they really need an intensive effort to resolve the R15 problems. No arguing that there are problems. If they can get rid of the gremlins, the R15 will be a very nice product.

Carl
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
I wouldn't classify myself as a TiVo hater... I am just no longer a TiVovangilst like I used to be. I have still to this day, still recommended the TiVo, Inc. products to individuals...

For me one of the problems I see, if there is an alternative out there... is stalling of the feature set. Instead of making sure that a feature is compatible with the product "you" control, as well as a third party...

Or having to run two different feature sets...
It makes it hard for one of them to ever reach that next level.

I mean that was part of the problem with DTivo vs SA-TiVo

Since TiVo, Inc... had FULL controll over SA-TiVo, it's feature set grew by leaps and bounds... but the DTiVo stalled... why, DirecTV has a LOT of factors to consider, part of which is $ related... I mean the "rumors" where that for some of the SA featuers, TiVo Inc, wanted more moeny.

So for me, I don't think it should be a hatred of TiVo, Inc... and for what they have done... they pretty much "made" the DVR what it is today.

But then on the flip side, there has to be a reason why pretty much EVERY carrier out there only offers a version they control... (Yes I am aware of Comcast and Cox, but they are not available yet).
All your points are pretty much on-target re: provider control...however, I don't really see them as a plus for the individual user, which is where I'd prefer a significant amount of control to remain. Between provider boxes and crap like the DMCA, I'm afraid that the golden age of the DVR has passed.

The good thing is that there is increasing competition in the "pay TV" market, so there is incentive for providers to get things right.
 

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I just get tired of the "TIVO HUGGERS". It's almost comical. Attitudes like "give me TIVO or give me Death" or "There will never be anything better than a TIVO" or "They can pry it from my cold dead hands" or whatever mello dramatic comments you want to fill in. I have 4 TIVO products. I like them. I have no complaints. It's just a DVR, as is the HR20. I'm not a TIVO hater, though. Look at my signature. I have several of both.

I'm not going to run out of the house screaming bloody murder if any of them fail. Which I have had one of each do.
 

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bwaldron said:
All your points are pretty much on-target re: provider control...however, I don't really see them as a plus for the individual user, which is where I'd prefer a significant amount of control to remain. Between provider boxes and crap like the DMCA, I'm afraid that the golden age of the DVR has passed.

The good thing is that there is increasing competition in the "pay TV" market, so there is incentive for providers to get things right.
Your right... none of them benefit us as consumers... And sadly, it does nothing to stop those that are making $$$$$$$$$$$$ violating them.

It just make average Joe and Jane user that wants more control of "THEIR" enjoyment of entertainment, leaps and bounds more difficult and more expensive.

And none of that will change, provided that those that "make the entertainment", get paid more in one CD, Movie, Season... then those enjoying the content will make in their entire lives. :(
 

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HDTVsportsfan said:
I just get tired of the "TIVO HUGGERS". It's almost comical. Attitudes like "give me TIVO or give me Death" or "There will never be anything better than a TIVO" or "They can pry it from my cold dead hands" or whatever mello dramatic comments you want to fill in. I have 3 TIVO products. I like them. I have no complaints. It's just a DVR, as is the HR20. I'm not a TIVO hater, though. Look at my signature. I have several of both.

I'm not going to run out of the house screaming bloody murder if any of them fail. Which I have had one of each do.
I'm not a "Tivo hugger." I don't think I've gotten physical with any of my electronic equipment. :) My first and most-loved DVR was the original ReplayTV.

However, there are some valid reasons why folks love Tivo. They helped create the DVR "revolution" and gave us consumers control over our TV viewing that we never had before. That right there is worth some love. Combined with their genial "look the other way" attitude towards folks upgrading & hacking the units (within legal/ethical bounds), their early involvement with the user community, and the general quality and reliability of the product...well, there are a lot of reasons they have inspired loyal users. For those who weren't there at the beginning, such loyalty can be a bit hard to understand.
 

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HDTVsportsfan said:
I just get tired of the "TIVO HUGGERS". It's almost comical. Attitudes like "give me TIVO or give me Death" or "There will never be anything better than a TIVO" or "They can pry it from my cold dead hands" or whatever mello dramatic comments you want to fill in. I have 3 TIVO products. I like them. I have no complaints. It's just a DVR, as is the HR20. I'm not a TIVO hater, though. Look at my signature. I have several of both.

I'm not going to run out of the house screaming bloody murder if any of them fail. Which I have had one of each do.
I'm with you, here. Tivos a DVR, the Moto 6412s a DVR, & the HR20s a DVR. All 3 have issues, but they serve(d) my purpose.
 

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HDTVsportsfan said:
I just get tired of the "TIVO HUGGERS". It's almost comical. Attitudes like "give me TIVO or give me Death" or "There will never be anything better than a TIVO" or "They can pry it from my cold dead hands" or whatever mello dramatic comments you want to fill in. I have 3 TIVO products. I like them. I have no complaints. It's just a DVR, as is the HR20. I'm not a TIVO hater, though. Look at my signature. I have several of both.

I'm not going to run out of the house screaming bloody murder if any of them fail. Which I have had one of each do.
Agree 100%.

TiVo's a fine DVR and yes, I own several, but I'm interested in other options as well.

I don't know, maybe it's the "underdog" aspect that some people attach themselves to as well as the platform, but I personally want to see the DVR field broaden and not be limited to TiVo.

I really have to question just how far a company whose sole function is to record live TV can progress without providing programming to go along with it. I saw the Motley Fool, I think it was MF, article which put forth the notion that TiVo's main assets are the the patents it owns, but does that make it more probable that TiVo is a company that can move forward on its own or a prime candidate for acquisition?
 

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bwaldron said:
I'm not a "Tivo hugger." I don't think I've gotten physical with any of my electronic equipment. :) My first and most-loved DVR was the original ReplayTV.

However, there are some valid reasons why folks love Tivo. They helped create the DVR "revolution" and gave us consumers control over our TV viewing that we never had before. That right there is worth some love. Combined with their genial "look the other way" attitude towards folks upgrading & hacking the units (within legal/ethical bounds), their early involvement with the user community, and the general quality and reliability of the product...well, there are a lot of reasons they have inspired loyal users. For those who weren't there at the beginning, such loyalty can be a bit hard to understand.
I paid 1000.00 for the HR10 as did many others. Some may feel it's justified to get physical w/ there TIVO's for that kind of money.:grin: (JUST KIDDING)

I don't disagree with your points at all. They are very valid and correct.
Again, I don't dislike TIVO as much as I do some of there owners comments and attitudes actually.

I'M NOT REFERRING TO YOU OR ANYONE DIRECTLY.

It's just this hollier than thou attitude that just seems to come accross when reading posts and comments. But I guess some could say the same about some of the HR20 users. It goes both ways I guess.
 

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bidger said:
Agree 100%.

TiVo's a fine DVR and yes, I own several, but I'm interested in other options as well.

I don't know, maybe it's the "underdog" aspect that some people attach themselves to as well as the platform, but I personally want to see the DVR field broaden and not be limited to TiVo.

I really have to question just how far a company whose sole function is to record live TV can progress without providing programming to go along with it. I saw the Motley Fool, I think it was MF, article which put forth the notion that TiVo's main assets are the the patents it owns, but does that make it more probable that TiVo is a company that can move forward on its own or a prime candidate for acquisition?
I guess I will jump in here.

Microsoft has yet to consistently build pc's but seem to be making a killing on just writing the programing that runs them. This said, I would find it hard to say that since TIVO only has intellectual property and hardware and lacks programing it would be running behind the rest of the tech market. Yes, they may be a great target for acquisition, I just think D*TV should have kept paying them until they could work out a deal to make it happen.

I wish that D*TV would have talked with it's client base prior to severing relations with TIVO. I really think we would have been happy to have "paid" to keep the family together and think the two could have worked to provide a solid out of the box experience vs. this it will work later experience we are going through with the HR20.

Us Tivo lovers, expected our HR-20's to be at least what we had before. When you upgrade you expect to start at the same place and get better. I think many of us are saying we did not start in the same place as much as we are hugging our TIVO.

When I called D*TV to order a new HD DVR to replace my NON-HD DVR, I did not plan on buying a new piece of furniture for my living room or tech project to test, upgrade and tweek, even though HR20-700 has given me both. Not, that I don't like to test and play with technology, I make my living doing it. I just don't do it with an item that I, 1) need to be able to use on a daily basis and 2) share with my wife and family. On top of all this, now that I have the dual tuners, I have more HD channels locally than over the satellite. Now this make me really feel like my two year commitment is doing more to finance Hughes next two satellites then provide me with an upgraded product.

So yes, I miss my Tivo, and like many others I have my fancy new box sitting right next my old box and will continue to do so for a while.
 

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I miss Daphne Brogdon! - A Shout out to all you old school Tivolutionaries.
In general I wish Tivo as much success as possible. It would be great if their path and my path with D* would cross.
However, since I work in the TV industry I remember fondly getting our first broadcast media server. After playing with it for a day or two I recall saying "This is going to be f*ing awesome when they have one of the these for the home."

About 6 months later Tivo and Replay were introduced. Neither being from Phillips (technology), who made our media server, but I researched both and jumped on the Tivo side.
Went through a good year of constant software updates until it became close to what we know today.

I am the proud owwner of an original 14 hour TIVO and then two years later moved up to the DirecTivo. Was without local channels for two additional years until our market was picked up. I have Tivo shirts, hats, and dolls. My daughter finds Tivo much more amazing than Pinky as well!

Unfortunately Tivo and D* culd not work together. Basically from the time Tivo was born the discussion began as to when they would be swallowed or overrun by the bigger players. Frankly they should be proud of where they are today. It could be much worse. I think they lost ground by not working with D* at any cost. Their advantage was good products in more homes. They lost this as time went on.


I think the HR-20 has turned out to be outstanding even with the intial problems.
I may be lucky in no RBRs since the first week but I think it proves what they can do with this box (as in being stable!) Be thankful you don't have to deal with a Time Warner DVR. The first automobile led to the car driven world we live in today. And as we all don't drive Fords we won't all have Tivos.

I think it is great to have been at the birth of this technology and I will always know what "Tivo" means!
 

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A pox on the both of them! They spent their money in the courts instead of on engineering. They both let the CableCos catch-up (and in some aspects surpass them). IMHO the significant additional cost vs increased functionality of the SA-Tivo is a tough sell to any but the most diehard of Tivo fans. D* is so worried about controlling their signal that they choke-off really cool capabilities like MRV, wireless, desktop/portable interfaces, etc. There is so much technology & functional capability being left on the drawing board by the entire industry that it just makes me want to cry! :(
 

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Godfather
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Not sure where this thread came from. I personally don't see a lot of TiVo bashing here. If anything there is more D* bashing than TiVo.
 

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Many of the people on dbstalk with HR20's also own and like their TiVos. I am one.

22 of our Wishlist Items are things my old Sony T60 has done for 6 years:

#
1 Dual Live Buffers
2 Provide accurate repeat/first run info so the right shows can be recorded p. 47
3 The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Scheduler (even when there are no upcoming episodes) p. 28.
4 "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" p. 33
5 GUIDE button "displays the Guide" first and Channel Categories second per p. iv. & 4
9 Fast Forward autocorrection
10 More functional search (ignore "The" and "A" at start of title, better search logic - AND, OR, NOT, include at sign @ and colon : character)
11 Enable consumer installable Hard Drive Expansion Device - Investor Day 2/22/06 Slide 41
12 Always return to most recently accessed position on My Playlist when using LIST
14 Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for “just what you want to watch” p. 31
15 Allow Autorecord after a Search by Title as described in the manual on pp. 20 & 31
16 In all menus, the Left Arrow should function like the BACK button and in menus that don't have a right screen pane, the RIGHT Arrow should function like the SELECT button
19 Show Delete/Don't Delete popup when stopping in the last few minutes of a recording
21 wrap the cursor to the bottom or top when reaching the top or bottom of a menu pane
22 The HR20 should not delete any program marked as "keep until I delete" even if the "keep at most" number is exceeded for a Series Link or Autorecord program.
23 Have INFO show more detail about a show (Cast, Writers, etc.) - possibly on a second screen
39 The ability to have My Playlist display more shows on the screen at the same time
40 The ability to set manual recordings for a date well into the future rather than a week or so
41 TiVo style guide grid
47 Enable "Sound Effects" as shows in the photo on p. 29 of the manual
57 2.216↑ Enable Closed Captioning during 1x FF
Removed from list: TiVo Suggestions.

Still, I think that the HR20 can someday have many of the same basic features as my old TiVo.

TiVo is overvalued as a manufacturing company but undervalued for it's patent portfolio. Someone is going to figure out that out and buy them just to put the patents in a vault.

I give it less than 5 years.

- Craig
 

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DblD_Indy said:
I wish that D*TV would have talked with it's client base prior to severing relations with TIVO. I really think we would have been happy to have "paid" to keep the family together and think the two could have worked to provide a solid out of the box experience vs. this it will work later experience we are going through with the HR20.

Us Tivo lovers, expected our HR-20's to be at least what we had before. When you upgrade you expect to start at the same place and get better. I think many of us are saying we did not start in the same place as much as we are hugging our TIVO.
I loved my tivo, and I still have 2 of them to go with my 1 shiny new HR20. I prefer the HR20 to the tivos, but by no means do I hate the tivo boxes.

The one thing I'd like to add to this conversation though, is that we're making a rather large assumption that if D* had kept working with Tivo the experience of the HR20 would be drastically different. I think that users of S3 Tivo boxes might take exception to that assumption. Given that the S3 Tivos are experiencing difficulties, it's quite a leap to assume that a brand new D*Tivo would have no problems at all.

That's not to say that your points are not valid, just another piece of the puzzle. Obviously there are features of the older TIVOs that are not on the HR20, and so you could say it's a step back in that sense, so I understand fully the frustration with the HR20 - especially if the missing features are ones you use extensively on the older TIVos.
 

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The HR10 was a nice box, but it was always too slow.

If TiVo still wanted to make DirecTivo boxes I'm sure they could pay a licensing fee to incorporate satellite tuners in to their box, but that's not how it works... is it?

There aren't enough TiVo fanatics to keep a dedicated DTV platform afloat if not for the rest of us getting dragged in too, and DTV paying them off.

Hopefully the HR20 will improve as it matures. At least DTV can do something about their own box.
 

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Legend
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I don't hate Tivo by any means. I did hate the part about having to have a phone line hooked up. Seems like if you didn't it would get slower and slower etc.. They need to get up to date with that part if they haven't. I know many many people that have dropped their land based phone lines and just use Cell as main phone.
 

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A couple of possible explanations:

If your previous experience was 70 year old linear TV then Tivo or ANY PVR is wonderful. If your previous experience is another PVR (UTV..) then the HR10 Tivo experience can be mind numbing. But the ultimate demise between Tivo and DTV may caused more by IP licensing greed than technology. Why pay Tivo when you have or have the rights to Uccentric and XTV.

Tivo initially valued “pretty” UI’s and cinema friendly family paradigms connecting different software modules with different design philosophies, rather than good human factors engineering. If you look at the human factors planning in different PVR’s you start to see the differences. Some of this functionality differences might be from that the foundations of some PVR’s are based on a single channel concept with dual channel functionality kludged on top, but others were designed from the ground up to deal with conflicts. The HR20 has a ways to go but the foundations are good.

Of course trying to force a phone call for data mining and a 3 second to 10 minute (yes minutes) wait for what was then a $800 machine didn’t help. Certainly my $800 Tivo was the worst value for any CE device I have ever bought and I was glad to sell it for $250 less than 2 years later. If it was the first PVR I had bought I would have thought it was wonderful!
 
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