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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I did lose my distants recently. And being over two hundred miles from the transmitters, there is no way to pick up the signal even with a two mile high antenna. There are several 14,000 foot mountain ranges in the way.

I did like the distants for they knew how to tell time. They started their programs on time instead of the 2 to 3 minutes before the hour like the locals assigned to me. They must have a bunch of pr-schoolers working in their programming and engineering departments that haven't learned how to tell time yet.

Even one of the so-called locals sent me a waiver stating that since I am not even in any a, b ,or c grade contour that my getting a distant was okay with them since wasn't even in the local broadcast area.

They are not losing any local advertising revenue since I would not travel over 200 miles by greyhound bus to shop there. And the only other advertising in abundance is for cars and I'm not buying.

And for there statements for local news and weather being important, what a joke. They are they called locals, because they ONLY cover the local news and information for their city. The only cover other areas if something earth-shattering happens there. Who care who stubbed their toe on main street in their city. What difference is it that I watch a program form New York, LA, Denver, Atlanta since none of the actual local information applies to me.


The congress really need to do away with the Nielsen DMAs. Nielsen has always been a worthless company. It really needs to be a simple rule of thumb applied.


If you can't pick up NBC, CBS, ABC, or that Fox channel with what the FCC considers a conventional rooftop antenna, that you can legally mount on you dwelling under certain circumstances then distants should be legal. If the cost of proving it is on the homeowner, to prove it so be it. With reimbursement from the networks when the homeowner was right and the networks were wrong. It is the networks responsibility to get the signal to you in a reasonable fashion.


I know for a fact that Decisonmark uses outdated info for their database. I had to provide them with informations County Commissioners names, phone numbers etc to prove that the county was no longer rebroadcasting any major networks since the people of the county didn't want to pay for the the towers.


Don't even mention that joke of a site called antennaweb. They don't have any idea what is really being broadcasting in a given area. A lot of the stations and translators have been off for years. If what is shown for my ares was correct I wouldn't need satellite. Again a company that uses outdated information and gives out false information.


Both companies should be required at their expense by law to actually to go out in the field and VERIFY what is really out there and not rely on lists provided by the NAB and/or FCC. Until that time they should be shut down for giving out false and misleading information.

This is my this humble opinion of course. And if the aforementioned companies can PROVE the 100% reliability of their database I will stand corrected.
 

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Hall Of Fame
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I believe most of antennaweb's statistical data comes from the FCC database, which I have noticed is notoriously out of date, but it is the official word.

They use the FCC data plus topographic modeling to predict reception.
 

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Legend
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The FCC's database of who's on the air and what their effective radiated power and antenna height above average terrain had better not be out of date.. and at a quick look at some random ones that I know about, it's not.

Antennaweb uses simple distances to determine what should be receivable, and it doesn't take terrain into account... mostly.

Obviously it doesn't accurately reflect situations like manicd being amongst the hills out there in Colorado...

But it doesn't really matter... Dish Network cannot deliver distants, so he'll have to try going through NPS.
 

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manicd said:
I did lose my distants recently. And being over two hundred miles from the transmitters, there is no way to pick up the signal even with a two mile high antenna. There are several 14,000 foot mountain ranges in the way.

I did like the distants for they knew how to tell time. They started their programs on time instead of the 2 to 3 minutes before the hour like the locals assigned to me. They must have a bunch of pr-schoolers working in their programming and engineering departments that haven't learned how to tell time yet.

Even one of the so-called locals sent me a waiver stating that since I am not even in any a, b ,or c grade contour that my getting a distant was okay with them since wasn't even in the local broadcast area.

They are not losing any local advertising revenue since I would not travel over 200 miles by greyhound bus to shop there. And the only other advertising in abundance is for cars and I'm not buying.

And for there statements for local news and weather being important, what a joke. They are they called locals, because they ONLY cover the local news and information for their city. The only cover other areas if something earth-shattering happens there. Who care who stubbed their toe on main street in their city. What difference is it that I watch a program form New York, LA, Denver, Atlanta since none of the actual local information applies to me.

The congress really need to do away with the Nielsen DMAs. Nielsen has always been a worthless company. It really needs to be a simple rule of thumb applied.

If you can't pick up NBC, CBS, ABC, or that Fox channel with what the FCC considers a conventional rooftop antenna, that you can legally mount on you dwelling under certain circumstances then distants should be legal. If the cost of proving it is on the homeowner, to prove it so be it. With reimbursement from the networks when the homeowner was right and the networks were wrong. It is the networks responsibility to get the signal to you in a reasonable fashion.

I know for a fact that Decisonmark uses outdated info for their database. I had to provide them with informations County Commissioners names, phone numbers etc to prove that the county was no longer rebroadcasting any major networks since the people of the county didn't want to pay for the the towers.

Don't even mention that joke of a site called antennaweb. They don't have any idea what is really being broadcasting in a given area. A lot of the stations and translators have been off for years. If what is shown for my ares was correct I wouldn't need satellite. Again a company that uses outdated information and gives out false information.

Both companies should be required at their expense by law to actually to go out in the field and VERIFY what is really out there and not rely on lists provided by the NAB and/or FCC. Until that time they should be shut down for giving out false and misleading information.

This is my this humble opinion of course. And if the aforementioned companies can PROVE the 100% reliability of their database I will stand corrected.
Enuff with your rant now do something about your problem. Contact antennaweb with your up to date information and the documentation from the stations. They contact you and then things could be changed to reflect the situation for your area.
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
whatchel1 said:
Enuff with your rant now do something about your problem. Contact antennaweb with your up to date information and the documentation from the stations. They contact you and then things could be changed to reflect the situation for your area.
It should be antennawebs responsibility to verify what is actuallly available. Not mine. If they are giving out information it should be 100 % correct
 

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I have found Antennaweb to be quite sensitive to terrain. I have done some comparisons of spots in my home town and it not only is sensitive to the terrain, but also appears to be pretty accurate. Elevation and terrain blockages are accurately predicted.
 

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Beware the Attack Basset
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Jim5506 said:
I have found Antennaweb to be quite sensitive to terrain.
That's because it is... up to a point. Here's the FAQ item:
Antennaweb FAQ said:
Do these antenna recommendations take terrain into account? I live in a mountainous area and reception can be difficult.

Yes, the algorithm used by this web site to recommend categories of antennas for your location uses terrain data from two sources, the USGS and NASA's shuttle radar terrain mapping project. This is important because, unlike AM radio signals, TV signals are line-of-site and don't follow the curvature of the earth. This means that obstructions such as hills, trees and buildings between the transmitter and the receiving antenna can block the signal entirely or reflect the signal into the antenna twice (ghosting). For best results in areas impacted by terrain, be sure to use your complete street address including house number, as well as city, state and ZIP Code.
Given that the information specific to your rooftop probably isn't in the USGS or NASA databases, I don't think it is fair to assail them for using the best available information. They try to condition the predictions with questions about how many stories your house is and what kind of obstructions you can see, but you have to be telling the truth and they have to assume some sort of average density.
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
oldave;757596 But it doesn't really matter... Dish Network cannot deliver distants said:
I'm wasn't talking about Dish Network. Thay played fast and loose and screwed up. Even when the stations say I am not in there signal area, these companies state that I am. These companies need to go out in the field and actually verify what is available or not. These companies are making decisions for people and not even bothering to verify that the data is correct.

I do not know of any conventional FCC approved antenna (since according to the FCCC you are allowed an conventional antenna and not one two miles high at your dwelling as you legal right.) that can pick signals form outsides a given stations signal area even when that station says that a location is outside that signal area.

So it goes to show that the database are out of date.

Maybe i am not aware of x and y and z grade contours? Isn't the area linited to A and B countours (and maybe c if there is one). Does not one neeed to reside in these countours to be ineleigle for distant netowrks? But when one is out side of these countours according to the station, shouldn't the person be eligible for distant networks? So someone's database of out of date/incorrect.

Question? Can one even pick up a staion's signal over completely flat land over 250 miles with not a sigle house, tree and ony other obstruction in the way? Maybe an engineer on this board can answer that one.

Question? How big can a stations grade A nd B counours be allowed by law?

And yes I was turned down by NPS even thought the stations say I am not in the signal/service area. NPS relies on Decisionmark who is not supplying or even verifying the information they provide.
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
harsh said:
That's because it is... up to a point. Here's the FAQ item:Given that the information specific to your rooftop probably isn't in the USGS or NASA databases, I don't think it is fair to assail them for using the best available information. They try to condition the predictions with questions about how many stories your house is and what kind of obstructions you can see, but you have to be telling the truth and they have to assume some sort of average density.
I showed a printout from there website to a retired engineer who laughed at their results. Apparently some sations/translators do not exist anymore or no longer on the air.

Instead of using the best so-called available information availble, let them get out in the filed and verify the information and see it is really correct or not. After all, they are providing information people are relying on.

Or maybe only give results for areas with a stations actual signa/service area and not antwhere else.
 

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manicd said:
It should be antennawebs responsibility to verify what is actuallly available. Not mine. If they are giving out information it should be 100 % correct
You ain't a kidding there - & I can vouch for how inaccurate it REALLY is! :eek2:

I just ran a check for a client up in Lincoln this weekend. It showed that they could receive a VERY low powered translator (100 watts!) for a local PBS over 30 miles away, (which is NOT even aimed at this town) but a full-powered FOX affiliate 30 miles away (which has been on the air since FOX started up!) does NOT even exist at this address!

Of COURSE this is totally insane - in reality, you can pull the FOX affiliate in with rabbit ears, while the translator would NOT even come in with a large outside antenna.

I think I'll stick to "other ways" of finding out this info... ;) :rolleyes:
 

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Hall Of Fame
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How do you think that antennaweb gets it's info. From the FCC and then if it is incorrect then if they are contacted by other sources with documentation then they can change what is in their data base. So it is not just their company they have to have help. Get off the soap box and let someone know that you can't get signal. Ranting on this forum doesn't change your problem. But proof to antennaweb and NPS will change it. In short expend some of that pent up energy getting something done instead of just B'in.
 

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manicd said:
And yes I was turned down by NPS even thought the stations say I am not in the signal/service area.
When did NPS deny you ?? If it was in the week or so following Dec 1st, that's not surprising. Try them again now and see if you get different results.
 

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Godfather
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Hall said:
When did NPS deny you ?? If it was in the week or so following Dec 1st, that's not surprising. Try them again now and see if you get different results.
All of Colorado is covered by LiL. Manicd is in a LiL market. His desire to watch DNS is a preference, not a right. Two rants don't make a right.
 

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Legend
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manicd said:
I did lose my distants recently. And being over two hundred miles from the transmitters, there is no way to pick up the signal even with a two mile high antenna. There are several 14,000 foot mountain ranges in the way.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you find them soon. :) If the mountains are an obstacle then the distance to the transmitter is not really relevant. Perhaps a 3 mile high (15,840 feet > 14,000 feet) antenna would work?
I did like the distants for they knew how to tell time. They started their programs on time instead of the 2 to 3 minutes before the hour like the locals assigned to me. They must have a bunch of pr-schoolers working in their programming and engineering departments that haven't learned how to tell time yet.
I think the start times are intentional. If you are talking about network programming, I'm not sure how they do this but since you know when program X starts (whether 11:57 or 12:00), I'm not sure what the problem is. Are you sure that your clocks aren't slow?
Even one of the so-called locals sent me a waiver stating that since I am not even in any a, b ,or c grade contour that my getting a distant was okay with them since wasn't even in the local broadcast area.
If you are in a white area a waiver is not necessary. Alternatively, if you have a waiver then what contour you are in doesn't matter. Which is it?
They are not losing any local advertising revenue since I would not travel over 200 miles by greyhound bus to shop there. And the only other advertising in abundance is for cars and I'm not buying.
What you would or would not do as an individual is not relevant. In any case you have received a waiver - how do your shopping habits impact this issue?
And for there statements for local news and weather being important, what a joke. They are they called locals, because they ONLY cover the local news and information for their city. The only cover other areas if something earth-shattering happens there. Who care who stubbed their toe on main street in their city. What difference is it that I watch a program form New York, LA, Denver, Atlanta since none of the actual local information applies to me.
I dunno, I think the fact that a psychotic killer has been seen in your area or that a tornado is heading your way might be important. I doubt that WABC is going to let you know. Although they might send a team to interview your surviving family members or photograph your leveled house after the fact. Local stations cover these type of events for their entire viewing area.
The congress really need to do away with the Nielsen DMAs. Nielsen has always been a worthless company. It really needs to be a simple rule of thumb applied.
I'm sorry to let you know but we are not living in North Korea. Congress may choose to alter the method used for qualification but they have no authority whatsoever to "do away" with a private company. I can only hope this statement is the result of your frustration and you will think more clearly once you calm down. Otherwise this is the scariest thing you have said.
If you can't pick up NBC, CBS, ABC, or that Fox channel with what the FCC considers a conventional rooftop antenna, that you can legally mount on you dwelling under certain circumstances then distants should be legal. If the cost of proving it is on the homeowner, to prove it so be it. With reimbursement from the networks when the homeowner was right and the networks were wrong. It is the networks responsibility to get the signal to you in a reasonable fashion.
Umm, under such circumstances DNS are probably available (but (again) since you have been granted a waiver it doesn't matter). Why can't you take "yes" for an answer?
I know for a fact that Decisonmark uses outdated info for their database. I had to provide them with informations County Commissioners names, phone numbers etc to prove that the county was no longer rebroadcasting any major networks since the people of the county didn't want to pay for the the towers.
Since when is it a local government's responsibility to provide towers for private TV stations? Even if the county chose to build such towers (it does happen) and lease space for antennas, it does not turn the county into a rebroadcaster. For the third time, you have waivers - what difference does this make to you?
Don't even mention that joke of a site called antennaweb. They don't have any idea what is really being broadcasting in a given area. A lot of the stations and translators have been off for years. If what is shown for my ares was correct I wouldn't need satellite. Again a company that uses outdated information and gives out false information.
Your story has grown tiresome.....
Both companies should be required at their expense by law to actually to go out in the field and VERIFY what is really out there and not rely on lists provided by the NAB and/or FCC. Until that time they should be shut down for giving out false and misleading information.
And ve have veys of making them talk.... You know I am really annoyed at DBSTalk.com - I'm sure somebody has posted false or misleading information - how can I get the feds to kick down some doors, shut down this site and take James Long away in chains?
This is my this humble opinion of course. And if the aforementioned companies can PROVE the 100% reliability of their database I will stand corrected.
Perhaps we should apply this same standard to the conduct of whatever business you are in. Just my humble opinion, of course.:nono2:
 

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Legend
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Tower Guy said:
All of Colorado is covered by LiL. Manicd is in a LiL market. His desire to watch DNS is a preference, not a right. Two rants don't make a right.
It should be obvious (by now) that Manicd (anybody want to analyze this name?) is not concerned about reception of TV signals but rather is out to right the wrong of the erroneous database. He has put on his armor, jumped on his white steed and is now jousting with windmills. To dream the impossible dream.....
 

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The FCC database, Antennaweb, and DecisionMark are only as good as the data that is provided to them.

The FCC repeatedly asks stations to verify and update their information and parameters. DecisionMark and other services do, too. Our station (actually, it's our department's Administrative Assistant) spends many hours, a couple of times a year, to completely verify and update all of the information on the main, translators, cable systems, and satellite.

Due to the costs involved in "private" use of tower sites (especially the BLM), most stations have gotten out of the translator business. Rural counties now own and license them, and provide the service to their residents.....Utah even has a small property tax based levy that counties can exercise to help pay for the TV and radio translators. Often, though, individual counties have more pressing needs than providing communications to the general public, so translators are sometimes not a high priority for maintenance and upgrades. The State of Utah has recently allocated much of the funding to upgrade the translator network to DTV, so that taxpayers can continue to receive free OTA TV that relates to their own communities.

Of course, the "Denver Situation" is a whole 'nuther matter.
 

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Super Moderator
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BobS said:
Both companies should be required at their expense by law to actually to go out in the field and VERIFY what is really out there and not rely on lists provided by the NAB and/or FCC. Until that time they should be shut down for giving out false and misleading information.
And ve have veys of making them talk.... You know I am really annoyed at DBSTalk.com - I'm sure somebody has posted false or misleading information - how can I get the feds to kick down some doors, shut down this site and take James Long away in chains?
No one is going to take me away in chains for the misleading information you or anyone else has posted. :)
kenglish said:
The FCC database, Antennaweb, and DecisionMark are only as good as the data that is provided to them.

The FCC repeatedly asks stations to verify and update their information and parameters. DecisionMark and other services do, too. Our station (actually, it's our department's Administrative Assistant) spends many hours, a couple of times a year, to completely verify and update all of the information on the main, translators, cable systems, and satellite.
It sounds like the issue here involves the content of the station. The FCC does not care about content (other than obscene and indecent) and doesn't look at network affiliations. Go ahead, find it in their database and show us where to look.

As far as the on air/off air status of the station ... that should be reported to the FCC and there are fines involved for being off the air when you should be on (without reporting the off within a time frame) and worse fines for being on the air when you shouldn't be (no grace period on that one).

If a station legally leaves the air it will show up in the FCC database and hopefully Decisionmark and others will find it. But content changes? Someone else is going to have to report that to Decisionmark, etc. Not the FCC.
 

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Legend
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manicd said:
These companies need to go out in the field and actually verify what is available or not. These companies are making decisions for people and not even bothering to verify that the data is correct.
Oh, please. You want them to spend the money to go out and do field strength studies and provide that information to you for free... gotcha, Comrade.

manicd said:
I do not know of any conventional FCC approved antenna (since according to the FCCC you are allowed an conventional antenna and not one two miles high at your dwelling as you legal right.) that can pick signals form outsides a given stations signal area even when that station says that a location is outside that signal area.
That's ok, I'm not aware of any FCC approved receiving antennas, either.

manicd said:
So it goes to show that the database are out of date.
With the possible exception of some dark stations, the FCC's database is quite accurate. It contains information such as the center of radiation HAAT and ERP.

It does NOT contain topographic data for the area allegedly served by any given station.

manicd said:
Question? Can one even pick up a staion's signal over completely flat land over 250 miles with not a sigle house, tree and ony other obstruction in the way?
That depends entirely on the height above the terrain of both the transmitting and receiving antennas, as well as effective radiated power at the transmitting antenna, as well as gain of the receiving antenna, line loss in the receiving system, etc, etc, and so on and so on. Doing a path study seems pointless.

manicd said:
Question? How big can a stations grade A nd B counours be allowed by law?
No such animal. That all depends on HAAT, ERP, antenna (directional or not?). Oh, sure, there are power limits that effectively limit the area served by any particular station... but there's nothing in the rules that addresses specifically how large that area can be.

manicd said:
And yes I was turned down by NPS even thought the stations say I am not in the signal/service area. NPS relies on Decisionmark who is not supplying or even verifying the information they provide.
If enough paying customers complain about the data to Decisionmark, they'll work to update it. Otherwise, you're just wasting breath.
 
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