DBSTalk Forum banner
1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Cool Member
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I own an HR23-700 (not leased!). Still running great after all these years and several HDDs. Currently running a Hitachi Ultrastar HDD 2TB 7200RPM 64MB. Been noticing slow program guide and menu changes. I have a few Solid State Drives and gave them a try:

Test SSD 1: Worked Great!
Samsung 850 EVO 500GB. NEW OEM SSD loaded straight into DVR from OEM packaging (no preformat). Result: D*TV software downloaded very fast. Program guide and menus snappy and fast...way faster than the HDD. Dual recording while playback and menu jumping snappy fast. Excellent results. After 10 min I removed it...bc the EVO 850 was destined for my main PC (and working great in the PC now).

Test SSD 2: No Work
OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS 120GB. Older SSD from main PC since 2012 and worked great in PC. NTFS format with Win7 OS. Installed into DVR, but could not get DVR to initialize the drive. ( I think Error 14-774, but did not write it down). I then used GPT to format the Vertex3 as per main DVR Hitachi HDD = Linux-Swap(600MB), XFS (15GB), and XFS extended for the rest (actually unrecognized by GPT, but expected XFS extended). No work. Tried other formats for fun: Deleted all partitions, XFS single primary, ext3, ext4....no work. Unable to initialize Vertex3 in any format and, of course, reset DVR multiple times in each format.

Question:
Does anyone know why the new Samsung EVO 850 500GB SSD worked great but the older Vertex3 120GB did not initialize? Is there a minimum size constraint (HR23-700 OEM is 500GB HDD)? SSD Controller incompatibility?

Note: There are a few posts in the HS17-100 thread stating the dangers of using an SSD in your DVR due to excessive writing. However, I was not able to find data online regarding actual test results from users. I planned on leaving the Vertex3 in the DVR for a few months to see how it did as a test run, but again, I could not get the DVR to initialize it.
 

·
Mr. FixAnything
Joined
·
27,422 Posts
go ahead, spent your time and money [for nothing]
too expensive and due constant writing and no TRIM support from STB FW your SSD will be wear out pretty quickly
when ? you will find soon
also the question been discussed here a few times, in DTV and dish forums and in Computers
we cant hold your hands - do what you want, but negative result is easy predictable if you know aspects of functioning DVR and SSD
 

·
Cool Member
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Any replacement or upgrade hard drive must be at least the same capacity as the original drive. Since your HR23 came with a 500GB internal drive, the 500GB SSD can work. But a 128GB drive won't.
Thanks! How do you know the drive size can't be lower than the OEM spec? (D*TV literature? your experience? common knowledge?)
 

·
Mr. FixAnything
Joined
·
27,422 Posts
it's done by try-and-tell method

I did find the edge as 100 GB for e* product OTA DVR TR-50, so you can do same - try 200 GB first

as to "must be" it's still "IMHO" kind of limit
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,279 Posts
Did you try a freshly formatted hard drive as well as a "control" test? Maybe using an empty drive was responsible for the performance increase, not the fact it was an SSD? I can't think of any reason why performance of stuff like menus should have anything to do with the speed of your storage. Maybe program guide access would improve, assuming part of it is saved to the hard drive/SSD.

As for wear, that Samsung is rated for 150 TB total writes, or 82 GB/day for five years. If you had two tuners recording full time (do they both buffer 24x7 in a Directv DVR like they do in a Tivo? I don't have any experience with Directv DVRs so I don't know) you can figure out how much they'll write. Directv's average HD channel is about 6.5 Mbps, but let's call it 8 Mbps or 1 MBps to make the math simple. Then it is 2 * 60 * 60 * 24 or 172 GB/day. That means you would hit the rated limit in about 2 1/2 years. However, several people have done long term SSD write lifetime testing and found they greatly outlived their rated lifetime, so you likely would get at least five years out of it. No promises, but there are no guarantees when you buy any hard drive that it will last five years. The SSD Endurance Experiment: They're all dead

If you stuck that SSD in a Genie, if it is on average writing more than two tuners at a time, that would increase the daily writes and wear it out sooner. Hopefully the HS17 will include sufficient built in flash that it stores only recordings and nothing else on the hard drive. If so, using an SSD won't have any impact on its overall performance.
 

·
Hall Of Fame
Joined
·
3,728 Posts
I once had the drive die in an HR24-200 and the only thing I had laying around that would fit was an original msata 64GB drive from a dell laptop. Installed it with sata to msata adapter. HR24 formatted and booted, system was quick but it wouldn't record anything. It was a stop-gap just to allow the viewing of live TV until I could get a replacement.
 

·
Cool Member
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Did you try a freshly formatted hard drive as well as a "control" test? Maybe using an empty drive was responsible for the performance increase, not the fact it was an SSD?
I will do that and get some SMART data. Is there a recommended file system for formatting the drive, such as XFS extended, or all partition delete and leave drive unallocated? My understanding is that D*TV DVR will format it anyway so it does not matter. I also plan to get a smaller 1TB drive with less power consumption better suited to the DVR and my viewing habits (WD Red, Purple, etc...still considering options) bc the old Hitachi is noisy & hot; will post result of new drive when I get it for reference.

I can't think of any reason why performance of stuff like menus should have anything to do with the speed of your storage. Maybe program guide access would improve, assuming part of it is saved to the hard drive/SSD.
Yes, I would think the menus & program data would easily fit the onboard RAM. However, there is a 500-600 MB Linux Swap partition on the DVR HDD that must be for virtual RAM paging. My usage requirements are light to normal: Series recordings number about 12, first run only, keep only one; custom channel list 48; total HD hours recorded < 30; only one DVR in the house. Subscription includes Premier + various sports packages (~800 channels I get). I don't know the HR23-700 memory requirements for standard menu & program data in 2017, but I have symptoms of the DVR using a lot of virtual RAM--like an old x86 P4 at 100% CPU. When the guide shows ads for PPV & ads, the page jump function & other guide operations slow down. The best solution to avoid virtual ram paging would be to turn off DVR features I don't use that are soaking up ram--like those pesky stealth ads. The faster 850 EVO SSD may have greatly helped in accessing the Linux Swap partition. My menus get slower during single recording, even slower during dual tuner recording, even slower during dual record + playback...all symptoms of taxed CPU and/or virtual RAM. There is also a 15Gb XFS partition, but not sure what that is storing other than my settings. In sum, I have an older HDD, the HR23-700 is an older DVR, and the latest software updates usually include enriched features that invariably require more RAM, cpu power, and bandwidth; perhaps all of these are contributing factors to the bedeviling paradigm of planned obsolescence.

As for wear, that Samsung is rated for 150 TB total writes, or 82 GB/day for five years...
:thumbsup:Thx. Excellent info.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,279 Posts
By "freshly formatted" I meant more just making sure that it didn't have anything existing from a previous use in a Directv receiver. Probably just zeroing the first 100MB would be good enough, no partition table, no evidence of a boot partition. You just want the receiver to treat it like an empty drive you just bought and create filesystems etc. itself.

I'm sure that swap partition was just created as a default. There's no way it is paging 500MB back and forth to the drive or it would be taking minutes to respond sometimes. If they're smart they'd have swap disabled - it isn't like receivers are able to swap so why should a DVR need to?

I would think it would carry all it needs in RAM, since obviously receivers have no alternative but RAM and maybe storing some in flash/NVRAM. But I have no experience with Directv DVRs and others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.
 

·
Mr. FixAnything
Joined
·
27,422 Posts
others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.
actually much more - whole APG (NIT,SDT.EPG,EEPG....), search data, logs...
SWAP is probably just Linux typical format, just in case if the DVR's OS would really need to swap something (I did look into the partition a few times - seen nothing, perhaps heavy load would use it)
 

·
Icon
Joined
·
3,851 Posts
I would think it would carry all it needs in RAM, since obviously receivers have no alternative but RAM and maybe storing some in flash/NVRAM. But I have no experience with Directv DVRs and others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.
If you do a single, clean reboot, you still have all the guide data for 2 weeks, so it has to be storing all that stuff somewhere. It really doesn't make sense to keep 2 full weeks of data in memory. Think of the advanced guide info too... ratings from 2 places, full cast info, thumbnails, etc.
 

·
Hall Of Fame
Joined
·
16,344 Posts
Right, the guide data is stored in a database, and if there is a change, that entry is rewritten. If I remember correctly, there was a point where it was just in memory, but that was something like 10 years ago.

Also note that (if I recall correctly), regular receivers only get a week's worth of guide.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,279 Posts
Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.
 

·
Hall Of Fame
Joined
·
16,344 Posts
Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.
I don't believe it does survive one reboot, but it loads the data pretty quickly. When I had a receiver hooked up, it wasn't used much for live tv so the guide was mainly used to set recordings remotely.
 

·
Mr. FixAnything
Joined
·
27,422 Posts
Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.
it could be a special trick, system knows how many reboots it did and treat two subsequent as sign to clean some system data
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top