[harsh]

With the customer agreements offered by streaming companies (no commitment, cancel any time) I don't know how one company buys another company's customers. Customers under contract are an asset. Customers not under contract can be won or lost via competition.

While this is true for many, a lot of the remaining customers will be there because there isn't any competition for their pay TV fix. Whether it is terrible broadband, data caps or other factors, there is likely be a place for DBS for a while yet.

Can anyone do a better job of running DIRECTV than TPG?

Your argument certainly assumes that.

 

[James Long]

While this is true for many, a lot of the remaining customers will be there because there isn't any competition for their pay TV fix.

On the satellite side there is DISH Network. They only lost 800k net satellite subscribers in the past year (still reporting separately) and made $3 billion profit with satellite and streaming so they should be around for a while.

Your argument certainly assumes that.

You can't buy liquid in a sieve. That is the best description I have for no commitment customers. If someone sells you a sieve full of liquid you are buying a wet sieve. The other assets of DIRECTV have value.

Financially, I believe DIRECTV (even under TPG) is doing fine. A couple billion dollars a year in profit isn't bad. If it were my company I'd settle for a couple billion a year in profit. In my opinion TPG should milk the cash cow for as long as they can. In TPG's opinion? Apparently they want to sell the cow while it still has milk for the next owner.

 

[CraigerM]

With the cable networks abandoning first run programming the cable channels will mainly have nothing but reruns and old movies. Would the ratings on those channels go down if that is all that is on them? How many times can you watch those before you would get bored with them? They would then only appeal to younger viewers who have never seen them. Then they would probably watch them on streaming. Also, wouldn't streaming those shows be cheaper then running a cable channel?

 

[SledgeHammer]

Are they? It isn't all about launching and station keeping. There's also the specialized equipment involved at the customer premises along with its maintenance. Remember that everything other than the Genie 2 (a model introduced over five years ago) is getting up there in electronics years from both a design and longevity perspective.

Yes. Disney+ lost 1.5B in a quarter. A satellite buy & launch = $500M with at least a 10-15 year life span. Quarterly operating costs of the satellite fleet amount to a rounding error. Customer equipment has long been bought and paid for 10x over via monthly outlet fees.

 

[SledgeHammer]

With the cable networks abandoning first run programming the cable channels will mainly have nothing but reruns and old movies.

News to the rest of us. I watch first run shows on History, Discovery, ID, Science Channel, NatGeo, channel 204, I forget what its called lol and VH1 (and probably a few others). Although I don't watch them, USA & TBS also have first run shows as does CNN (non news).

Regardless, how does that compare to, say, Peacock, which is mostly reruns and old movies? When I logon, I see mostly old TV shows in my feed.

 

[harsh]

On the satellite side there is DISH Network. They only lost 800k net satellite subscribers in the past year (still reporting separately) and made $3 billion profit with satellite and streaming so they should be around for a while.

My point was that streaming wasn't going to be a concern for some of the holdout customers. I can't imagine anyone else being terribly interested in DIRECTV -- especially given the debt load that they carry.

You can't buy liquid in a sieve. That is the best description I have for no commitment customers. If someone sells you a sieve full of liquid you are buying a wet sieve. The other assets of DIRECTV have value.

Maybe to Shaw Direct (who is in the process of losing one of their two satellites) but Ka isn't all that popular around the world for DTH TV.

Financially, I believe DIRECTV (even under TPG) is doing fine. A couple billion dollars a year in profit isn't bad. If it were my company I'd settle for a couple billion a year in profit. In my opinion TPG should milk the cash cow for as long as they can.

The billions in profit aren't sustainable without the AT&T infusions and rising costs for their trademark programming. The debt service is likely to get more expensive in our inflationary economy.

 

[CraigerM]

However, I do like that DTV is innovating again with the new DTV APP and maybe having the C71KW work with DTV.

 

[harsh]

However, I do like that DTV is innovating again with the new DTV APP and maybe having the C71KW work with DTV>

I'd hardly call it innovating if the new app isn't as capable as the old apps. I'd certainly buy "consolidating" but I'm not sure what the point would be other than to shorten the hop to the STREAM product.

 

[SledgeHammer]

My point was that streaming wasn't going to be a concern for some of the holdout customers. I can't imagine anyone else being terribly interested in DIRECTV -- especially given the debt load that they carry.Maybe to Shaw Direct (who is in the process of losing one of their two satellites) but Ka isn't all that popular around the world for DTH TV.
The billions in profit aren't sustainable without the AT&T infusions and rising costs for their trademark programming. The debt service is likely to get more expensive in our inflationary economy.

Sunday Ticket has always been a big money loser for DirecTV. If James' "2M people pay for it" is accurate, there are millions more getting it for free. There's also talk of DirecTV partnering with whomever gets it to keep it in bars.

 

[SledgeHammer]

I'd hardly call it innovating if the new app isn't as capable as the old apps. I'd certainly buy "consolidating" but I'm not sure what the point would be other than to shorten the hop to the STREAM product.

DirecTVs issue is that they lack focus and direction. How many times has the app been rebooted now lol? Dish has generally been considered to have better hardware, but worse PQ. Has Dish having streaming apps brought in any customers? How many?

 

[harsh]

There's also talk of DirecTV partnering with whomever gets it to keep it in bars.

Content delivery probably isn't the huge money-maker that NFLST is. If it is like other commercial stuff that DIRECTV carries, they aren't getting retail for it.

 

[harsh]

Dish has generally been considered to have ... worse PQ.

Mostly by DIRECTV DBS customers who have an obvious axe to grind.

Has Dish having streaming apps brought in any customers? How many?

While DISH reports their financials (unlike DIRECTV), they don't offer that kind of detail. DISH is going deeper into the streaming apps space with the very recent introduction of the Hopper Plus and Joey 4 so it stands to reason that offering streaming apps is something of value.

 

[CraigerM]

I'd hardly call it innovating if the new app isn't as capable as the old apps. I'd certainly buy "consolidating" but I'm not sure what the point would be other than to shorten the hop to the STREAM product.

Maybe they are wanting DTV customers to get used to DTV Stream then when DTV's last satellite goes out customers who have the C71KW will be used to DTV Stream, and they can easily switch over?

 

[CraigerM]

DirecTVs issue is that they lack focus and direction. How many times has the app been rebooted now lol? Dish has generally been considered to have better hardware, but worse PQ. Has Dish having streaming apps brought in any customers? How many?

Wasn't that with the old APP?

 

[James Long]

... have first run shows as does CNN (non news).

I liked the "CNN Presents" content but missed a lot of it when I stopped watching all cable news channels a few years ago. (I want news, not loudly presented political opinions.) I was able to catch up on some of the CNN Presents content via HBO Max - streaming.

Sunday Ticket has always been a big money loser for DirecTV. If James' "2M people pay for it" is accurate, there are millions more getting it for free. There's also talk of DirecTV partnering with whomever gets it to keep it in bars.

I would not call it a money loser. Perhaps as a line item the last couple of years have been rough (generally due to the LOSS of commercial subscriptions - bars closed or operating at lower capacity due to COVID don't need or perhaps cannot afford the higher rate ST programming).

We don't have a parallel universe that we can check to see what DIRECTV's overall profits would have been without Sunday Ticket. Nor do we have reporting of how profitable Sunday Ticket was in each previous year as a line item. The presence of Sunday Ticket and the ability to give the service to new customers for free (a $300+ value) made it worth the cost for many years. Somehow even in recent years (pandemic years) where it is reported that they lost "tens of millions" of dollars on Sunday Ticket DIRECTV still managed to rake in billions of dollars in profit.

It was worth DIRECTV's investment for at least the first 25 years they had Sunday Ticket and was still of value the last two. If they felt that it was not worth the investment they could have bailed two years ago. AT&T|DIRECTV decided to keep the service.

 

[harsh]

Maybe they are wanting DTV customers to get used to DTV Stream then when DTV's last satellite goes out customers who have the C71KW will be used to DTV Stream, and they can easily switch over?

As I said, a short hop but given the grief that DIRECTV DBS customers have been experiencing with regard to switching to DIRECTV STREAM, I'm not sure what they might have in mind regarding the DIRECTV STREAM Device as a DIRECTV DBS client (other than the natural connection as an Android TV device).

 

[James Long]

The other assets of DIRECTV have value.

Maybe to Shaw Direct (who is in the process of losing one of their two satellites) but Ka isn't all that popular around the world for DTH TV.

DISH would take the licenses for 110 and 119 (24 transponders) and any Ku satellites they can move. The footprint of US satellites would be of limited value to Shaw and the licenses would be of no value. The programming contracts would be of no value to Shaw.

There is an opportunity for a new to satellite buyer to step in. Unlikely, but there is always a chance. Or someone who sees the programming contracts DIRECTV has signed as an asset. As noted, DIRECTV service is not a failure.

The billions in profit aren't sustainable without the AT&T infusions ...

What infusions? AT&T has obligated the parent company to pay for losses on Sunday Ticket until the end of the current contract ... that's it. If TPG's DIRECTV somehow gets a contract to carry Sunday Ticket in the future AT&T does not have to cover that loss. How many billions of dollars are you alleging AT&T is infusing?

Has Dish having streaming apps brought in any customers? How many?

Thanks to SlingTV they have 2.4 million more subscribers than they would if they only had satellite. I don't believe the DISH Anywhere app is a major influence on keeping satellite subscribers. It is too limited.

 

[CraigerM]

As I said, a short hop but given the grief that DIRECTV DBS customers have been experiencing with regard to switching to DIRECTV STREAM, I'm not sure what they might have in mind regarding the DIRECTV STREAM Device as a DIRECTV DBS client (other than the natural connection as an Android TV device).

Sorry, I forgot that don't some CSR's don't know if you can keep DTV while trying DTV Stream that they say you have to cancel DTV first? Then also not being able to use your current email that you have with DTV and be able to sign up to DTV Stream with it and you have use a different one?

 

[SledgeHammer]

Mostly by DIRECTV DBS customers who have an obvious axe to grind.

Seems to be the general consensus on the forums. I couldn't care less about Dish and certainly have no "axe to grind" (and why would ANYBODY have an axe to grind against either company? -- except for a couple of people on this forum who crawl out from under their rocks every once in a while to try to get me personally to cancel DirecTV lol), but the Hopper 3 seems like better hardware then the HR54. I did try the HR54 OTA dongle which was garbage and ended up selling it on eBay and going back to my trusted AM21. No idea if the Dish OTA dongle works better.

 

[SledgeHammer]

Thanks to SlingTV they have 2.4 million more subscribers than they would if they only had satellite. I don't believe the DISH Anywhere app is a major influence on keeping satellite subscribers. It is too limited.

I was referring to having streaming apps on the Hopper itself. From a technical point of view, to me I would find it more convenient to have streaming apps on the HR54 (or whatever). Right now, I use the ones on my TV which means I have to switch the TV to the app and switch the AVR to TV audio (3 remotes vs. 1). But I don't think having streaming apps built into the hopper brought in any new subs (or helped keep any). It basically saved you from having to spend $100 on a Roku, although I'd have to see if having the apps had any bad influence on the TV/DVR performance.