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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What I dont understand is how DirecTV put out the last update *knowing* about the FFWD bug? How can you introduce such a huge known bug to a majority of yoru suerbase in the name of fixing other bugs to a smaller portion of it? Why not wait until you can fix the bugs without introducing such a huge new one?
 

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ouijal said:
What I dont understand is how DirecTV put out the last update *knowing* about the FFWD bug? How can you introduce such a huge known bug to a majority of yoru suerbase in the name of fixing other bugs to a smaller portion of it? Why not wait until you can fix the bugs without introducing such a huge new one?
How many times am I going to have to explain it...

1) There was a MAJOR/CRITICAL issue with recordings that where BLANK or corrupted... MAJOR that was affecting a SIGNIFICANT amount of the HR20 user base, including people that are not part of this forum. If you don't think the Blank or Corruped recording... just go back to look at the release notes for D8. Even if the volume wasn't "as large", the affect was much more significant then having to use 30s skip on mpeg-4 recordings

2) They fixed that problem, but part of the fix included having to re-do part of a process that already was working (Aka the FF).. welcome to the world of software development... sometimes the proper fix, results in having to re-work things that where already working.

3) They made the decision that BLANK and CORRUPTED recordings had to be fixed.. and fixed as soon as possible... instead of sitting on that fix for at least another week (which has already turned into longer then a week, and could be longer)... and have that FF bug in there... which DOESN'T effect standard playback.

So for you and in your situation... sure... you see it as a problem.
But imagine if you where a customer that on a regular basis was having all their recordings not there AT ALL.....
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wow, big surprise. Earl takes up for a DirecTV move. Really Earl, I appreciate your knowledge but your DirecTV spin-doctoring does get a little old after awhile. You don't have to explain it any more times if all you are going to do is tow the DirecTV company line. Though it is funny how you have time and time again brushed off reports of major problems here but now say blank recordings was "MAJOR that was affecting a SIGNIFICANT amount of the HR20 user base".

As a software developer for many years, I cannot fathom how anyone can stick up for knowingly introducing another huge bug for the sake of fixing a huge bug. Fixing a problem while knowingly creating an equally big problem is not how you update software, even if there is a workaround. You cannot use the severity of a previous bug as an excuse to rush out a fix even though it introduces another severe bug. You can explain it as many times as it take to make DirecTV happy, but it will never make sense to me.

And I do not appreciate you making it seem like I only care because the new FFWD bug is bothering me. The software I write deals with millions of people and thousands of business all over the world, I am well versed in thinking of the big picture and not just focusing on what I or a small group of people want. I have very few problems with the HR20 and frankly the FFWD bug doesn't bother me all that much, but it is symptomatic of what i perceive as a development process @ DirecTV that is woefully out of touch.

They should have held back the last update until they could put it out there without pissing off a whole new set of people. Of course it is painfully obvious they should have held this box back from release period.
 

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ouijal said:
They should have held back the last update until they could put it out there without pissing off a whole new set of people. Of course it is painfully obvious they should have held this box back from release period.
As another professional developer I agree with your entire post most emphatically.
 

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ouijal said:
As a software developer for many years, I cannot fathom how anyone can stick up for knowingly introducing another huge bug for the sake of fixing a huge bug. Fixing a problem while knowingly creating an equally big problem is not how you update software, even if there is a workaround.
Just so I'm clear - it is your opinion that the following 2 bugs are equally as severe for an HD DVR?:

1) Scheduled recordings are recorded as blank or corrupt. Program is unwatchable.

2) User cannot use FF or REW on MPEG 4 local channels. Must use 30 second skip or instant replay to navigate programs.

In my opinion, bug 1 is about as severe as it gets for an HD DVR, while #2 is not even close.
 

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jschuman said:
Just so I'm clear - it is your opinion that the following 2 bugs are equally as severe for an HD DVR:

1) Scheduled recordings are recorded as blank or corrupt. Program is unwatchable.

2) User cannot use FF or REW on MPEG 4 local channels. Must use 30 second skip or instant replay to navigate programs.
You are correct. We should pick the lesser of two massive bugs and stop whining. Expecting a product that functions as advertised is ridiculous. The developers are only human and feel sad when we complain! It's only TV after all.

Have I covered all the dumb excuses, so you can can it now?
 

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ouijal said:
Wow, big surprise. Earl takes up for a DirecTV move. Really Earl, I appreciate your knowledge but your DirecTV spin-doctoring does get a little old after awhile. You don't have to explain it any more times if all you are going to do is tow the DirecTV company line. Though it is funny how you have time and time again brushed off reports of major problems here but now say blank recordings was "MAJOR that was affecting a SIGNIFICANT amount of the HR20 user base".

As a software developer for many years, I cannot fathom how anyone can stick up for knowingly introducing another huge bug for the sake of fixing a huge bug. Fixing a problem while knowingly creating an equally big problem is not how you update software, even if there is a workaround. You cannot use the severity of a previous bug as an excuse to rush out a fix even though it introduces another severe bug. You can explain it as many times as it take to make DirecTV happy, but it will never make sense to me.

And I do not appreciate you making it seem like I only care because the new FFWD bug is bothering me. The software I write deals with millions of people and thousands of business all over the world, I am well versed in thinking of the big picture and not just focusing on what I or a small group of people want. I have very few problems with the HR20 and frankly the FFWD bug doesn't bother me all that much, but it is symptomatic of what i perceive as a development process @ DirecTV that is woefully out of touch.

They should have held back the last update until they could put it out there without pissing off a whole new set of people. Of course it is painfully obvious they should have held this box back from release period.
Surprise Surprise, when people can't see the forest, but focus on their one tree.

Someone explain to me; why is it "spin-doctoring" when I simply explain the FACTS on the situation?

It is EXACTLY why the decision was made... If you don't agree with their rational, so be it... but it doesn't change the FACTS on why the decision was made to push 0xDC with the flaw in FF, vs not pusshing it out.

Please do show me one thread... that I have "denied" or pushed it off as something not happening, or not saying that it does effect people... find one... go ahead... as you will be very hard pressed to find one. I don't deny that the box has issues.... If anything I try to help dig through a little more to find the root cause of the issue, or some pattern.
And provide some sort of work around or "explanation" on why it may be occuring. But I haven't once said... "You are full of it, that isn't happening"

Have you talked to any DirecTV employees that are actually responsible for the HR20? And have also heard the volume of calls, not reflected by this forum? If you have... and you gettting a different answer then when I talk to those people... then....

BTW... This is not "new" concept of releasiong critical updates, with known issues.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Sony, Cisco/Linksys, and so on....
They all release patches and software updates, that have had "known" issues... may not affected "you"... but may affect someone else.... The question is... are they going to fix it and when.

I as a software developer and as a project lead, have had to make the decision before. Do you fix the problem that is causing the main function of the unit to fail... while damaging a secondary function in certain scenerios... and then fixing that secondary function at a later time.

I've done it... and the software had the effect on thousands of people.. Doesn't really matter if effects millions, or thousands, or just 1... someone is going to be un happy... and that is the balance conundrum (sp?) of the decision.

Bringing it back to FACTS...
If you want to know "why" there was no software update this wednesday.
It is because the Beta Testers (which a lot of you don't believe happen) found a new issue, which occurs when a number of "things" match up. In fact it only hit 1 beta tester, until they finally could reproduce it in the lab.

Guess what the result was? The decision was made to hold the release until it was fixed. The issue was serious enough, even though it only affected 1 person in "real life testing". That it warranted the cancellation of the update.

Thus we are looking at possible another week (could be sooner though), or even longer depending how the testing goes for the latest build.

If you are wating for a perfect software package? Or the silver bullet software release, before it goes out.... You are going to be waiting a very long time... for ANY product (not just the HR20)
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
jschuman said:
Just so I'm clear - it is your opinion that the following 2 bugs are equally as severe for an HD DVR?:

1) Scheduled recordings are recorded as blank or corrupt. Program is unwatchable.

2) User cannot use FF or REW on MPEG 4 local channels. Must use 30 second skip or instant replay to navigate programs.

In my opinion, bug 1 is about as severe as it gets for an HD DVR, while #2 is not even close.
Equally servere or not, that is not the point. Fixing one major bug while knowingly introducing another major one is bad form. Especially when you introducing the first bug by pushing it out too soon in the first place.
 

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matto said:
You are correct. We should pick the lesser of two massive bugs and stop whining. Expecting a product that functions as advertised is ridiculous. The developers are only human and feel sad when we complain! It's only TV after all.

Have I covered all the dumb excuses, so you can can it now?
Sure.
What is the primary function of a DVR?
Digital Video Recorder.... Record the shows.

Not Digital Video Fast Forward so I don't have to watch annoying commercial
DVFFSIDHTWAC

Did the 0xDC update, improve the reliablity of the unit recording programs?

Does the unit FF? Yes or No? Neither answer is correct.
As it works for this channel, doesn't work for the same channel, different show. It is called a Bug... plain and simple.

So decide what you want... seriously... I honestly don't really care.
But if you don't want the facts on the situation, and want to spin everything around to it is DirecTV consipiring against it's paying customers...
 

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ouijal said:
Equally servere or not, that is not the point. Fixing one major bug while knowingly introducing another major one is bad form. Especially when you introducing the first bug by pushing it out too soon in the first place.
I was merely responding to your initial assertion that the two bugs were equally big problems. I don't agree with that so I posted. I received the HR20 after 0xDC was released so I have only seen the FF/REW bug. BUt I can tell you that IF I had the software prior to that and IF my recordings were blank or corrupt, I would have GLADLY taken 0xDC as is to get past that problem.

I understand your point, but I think in this case, DirecTv made the right decision to release the software when it did. I also look forward to the day when all the bugs are worked out.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
Have you talked to any DirecTV employees that are actually responsible for the HR20? And have also heard the volume of calls, not reflected by this forum?
If other customers are like me, they have simply gotten tired of wasting time calling D* to complain, so they can get the same load of BS from a CSR about how they've 'never heard of that problem before'.

BTW... This is not "new" concept of releasiong critical updates, with known issues.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Sony, Cisco/Linksys, and so on....
They all release patches and software updates, that have had "known" issues... may not affected "you"... but may affect someone else.... The question is... are they going to fix it and when.
Sorry, I call BS. I do release engineering at a company who's entire revenue is software sales. In my entire tenure there, I have NEVER seen a release go out the door with a known issue.

I as a software developer and as a project lead, have had to make the decision before. Do you fix the problem that is causing the main function of the unit to fail... while damaging a secondary function in certain scenerios... and then fixing that secondary function at a later time.

I've done it... and the software had the effect on thousands of people.. Doesn't really matter if effects millions, or thousands, or just 1... someone is going to be un happy... and that is the balance conundrum (sp?) of the decision.
Any organization releasing software with known, serious bugs has major problems.

If you are wating for a perfect software package? Or the silver bullet software release, before it goes out.... You are going to be waiting a very long time... for ANY product (not just the HR20)
LOL. You're equating basic DVR functionality with perfection? Talk about a red herring.
 

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ouijal said:
Equally servere or not, that is not the point. Fixing one major bug while knowingly introducing another major one is bad form. Especially when you introducing the first bug by pushing it out too soon in the first place.
Bad form or not... it is the reality of the situation.
They had a problem... they had to get it fixed... fixing ment having to re-write a portion of code. That is the reality of the situation.

The "reality" of it being bad form or not, can be different amongst all the users out there.... As that is an opinion of how software development and software rollout should be done. And there is no right or wrong, with an opinion... as an opinion is yours and yours only... only you can decide if your opinion is wrong or not.

Someone else may disagree with you, but that doesn't make it "wrong"... just means someone else looks at it a different way and has a different opinion.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
The "reality" of it being bad form or not, can be different amongst all the users out there.... As that is an opinion of how software development and software rollout should be done. And there is no right or wrong, with an opinion... as an opinion is yours and yours only... only you can decide if your opinion is wrong or not.

Someone else may disagree with you, but that doesn't make it "wrong"... just means someone else looks at it a different way and has a different opinion.
Whether or not to release broken software is not an opinion. If you think it is, I admonish you to seek employment in a different field.
 

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Legend
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Earl Bonovich said:
Someone explain to me; why is it "spin-doctoring" when I simply explain the FACTS on the situation?

It is EXACTLY why the decision was made... If you don't agree with their rational, so be it... but it doesn't change the FACTS on why the decision was made to push 0xDC with the flaw in FF, vs not pusshing it out.
Right. DirecTV gave you their reasoning and you are pushing it out there like it is a good thing when to many users it is not. That is definition of Spin Doctoring.

Earl Bonovich said:
Please do show me one thread... that I have "denied" or pushed it off as something not happening, or not saying that it does effect people
I did not say you have denied it happened at all, but you have said that problems were not severe and happening to small percentage of the userbase. That the "noisy minority" posted here and elsewhere about problems. Now you say the blank recording issue was severe and happening to a large percentage of the userbase (preacher meet choir) so they pushed out a fix that introduced another major bug to a large percentage of the userbase.

Earl Bonovich said:
Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Sony, Cisco/Linksys, and so on....
They all release patches and software updates, that have had "known" issues... may not affected "you"... but may affect someone else.... The question is... are they going to fix it and when.
And when any of these companies release an update that introduces a major bug to a high percentage of their userbase it is considered a huge blunder. Saying it happens all the time does not make it right.

Earl Bonovich said:
Bringing it back to FACTS...
If you want to know "why" there was no software update this wednesday.
It is because the Beta Testers (which a lot of you don't believe happen) found a new issue, which occurs when a number of "things" match up. In fact it only hit 1 beta tester, until they finally could reproduce it in the lab.

Guess what the result was? The decision was made to hold the release until it was fixed. The issue was serious enough, even though it only affected 1 person in "real life testing". That it warranted the cancellation of the update.
If only they had been so prudent before the last update release.

Earl Bonovich said:
If you are wating for a perfect software package? Or the silver bullet software release, before it goes out.... You are going to be waiting a very long time... for ANY product (not just the HR20)
Your constant misconstruing of what I am saying is laughable at best, desperate at worst. I am not saying it has to be perfect, I am saying hold back the updates until you can release them without knowingly introducing major bugs to a majority of your userbase.

I have been a DirecTV backer for years and will continue to use them for the foreseeable future, but their handling of the HR20 IMO reflects poorly on them. I also see where this is going and do not wish to get into a heated web debate about something I watch South Park on. So I think I will bow out of this one rather than repeat the same thing over and over anymore. My point is out there, people can take it how they will.
 

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matto said:
If other customers are like me, they have simply gotten tired of wasting time calling D* to complain, so they can get the same load of BS from a CSR about how they've 'never heard of that problem before'.
That is totaly different... that is a brake down in the CSR level... and has nothing to do with the release going out or not... that is a communication issue between DirecTV and their customers, and has ZERO to do with DirecTV deciding to push out the release or not.

matto said:
Sorry, I call BS. I do release engineering at a company who's entire revenue is software sales. In my entire tenure there, I have NEVER seen a release go out the door with a known issue.
Well then good for your company...
Either you didn't have to do many software updates, or your clients delt with issues in their system... doesn't matter... That was the rules of your software/product teams... not to release it with known issues.

So it is not "BS"... it is not a "new" practice. Just take a quick look at any release notes from Microsoft... which is arguable the largest software company in the world. Just about every release note I have seen for updates, has a section for "known issues"

matto said:
Any organization releasing software with known, serious bugs has major problems.
Well then.. there are a lot of companies that have MAJOR problems.
Including some of the largest software companies in the world (Microsoft, Symantec, Cisco, Mcaffee, just to name a few)

matto said:
LOL. You're equating basic DVR functionality with perfection? Talk about a red herring.
I am not equating basic DVR functionality to perfection. where do you see that? I am equating that if you want a software update, that has no issues... Or a software update can't go out with known issues.... then you are goint to be waiting a really long time.
 

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matto said:
Whether or not to release broken software is not an opinion. If you think it is, I admonish you to seek employment in a different field.
Wow, that comment reminds me of this guy I knew from University of Maryland. I didn't have much respect for him as a developer then and I certainly don't have any for him now.

By the way everyone on these forums are developers so don't think you're anything special.

- DVR Star
 

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matto said:
Whether or not to release broken software is not an opinion. If you think it is, I admonish you to seek employment in a different field.
You are correct....
Releasing "broken" software is not an opinion... .it is a decision.

The "opinon" is the view is it right or wrong...
Is the discision process they used to choose to rollout the software, right or wrong.... that is an opinion.

And I thank you for the "opinion" on my carrer... good luck with yours.
 

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Earl Bonovich said:
That is totaly different... that is a brake down in the CSR level... and has nothing to do with the release going out or not... that is a communication issue between DirecTV and their customers, and has ZERO to do with DirecTV deciding to push out the release or not.
You used anecdotal evidence of a drop in call volume to suggest users are happier with the latest release. I gave you an alternate reason for a drop in volume. Not sure questioning a relationship you suggested was directly causal was "totally different".

Also, you keep using Microsoft as an example of an ideal software development organization, since it strengthens many of your positions on release decisions; but I can't think of another software vendor with a worse public image when it comes to software quality. Are you sure you want D* to be more like Microsoft?
 

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ouijal said:
Right. DirecTV gave you their reasoning and you are pushing it out there like it is a good thing when to many users it is not. That is definition of Spin Doctoring.
Facts are neither "good" or "bad"...
So pushing them out there... to keep the facts of the issue on the table, and not speculation and theories... seem like "spin doctoring".. well then we have some different definitions of spin doctoring.

An opinion saying that this is the proper way to do it... or not the proper way of doing it... would be spin doctoring...

ouijal said:
I did not say you have denied it happened at all, but you have said that problems were not severe and happening to small percentage of the userbase. That the "noisy minority" posted here and elsewhere about problems. Now you say the blank recording issue was severe and happening to a large percentage of the userbase (preacher meet choir) so they pushed out a fix that introduced another major bug to a large percentage of the userbase.
You are correct... I have stated that some issues that users have had have been seen by a small percentage of people.... Doesn't deny that it is occuring. But gives that user a reference point to as when they may see their problem fixed.... since there is no officially public or even privately available priority of list.

Also, I use that wording to start off a investigation to dig into possible other reasons why the issue is occuring... doesn't change that it happened and happened to that user....

I have often searched google for issues that I am having with development, servers, or what ever... only to find NO ONE ELSE, or only 1 other person is having the problem.

Doesn't change the fact that I do have the problem, and I need to find the resolution... But what does that tell me? That is obscure and not large scale, hence I shouldn't expect a "fix" or patch, any time soon. (not saying that is the case with the HR20)...

ouijal said:
And when any of these companies release an update that introduces a major bug to a high percentage of their userbase it is considered a huge blunder. Saying it happens all the time does not make it right.

If only they had been so prudent before the last update release.
Hugh blunder or not... I am sure there are a lot of people out there gratefull that they are getting their recordings and can watch them at a minimum of regular speed...

ouijal said:
Your constant misconstruing of what I am saying is laughable at best, desperate at worst. I am not saying it has to be perfect, I am saying hold back the updates until you can release them without knowingly introducing major bugs to a majority of your userbase.

I have been a DirecTV backer for years and will continue to use them for the foreseeable future, but their handling of the HR20 IMO reflects poorly on them. I also see where this is going and do not wish to get into a heated web debate about something I watch South Park on. So I think I will bow out of this one rather than repeat the same thing over and over anymore. My point is out there, people can take it how they will.
And my words are not being misconstruded?

I am not arguing with your opinion's on what is right or what is wrong.
Only you can decide which it is... if you are not happy with the way they are doing the HR20 project, then well you can use that as a reason to decide to leave.
 

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Boy there are some folks around here who SERIOUSLY need to get a life. "Just TV" or not "Just TV", the fact of the matter is that a glitch in FF/RW is about the least significant software issue I've ever run across in 25 years of software use. People in all walks of life routinely make compromises, choosing to address one issue at the expense of another. Often those choices DO have regressive effects: this is true in hardware design, software development, financial management, litigation, and hell, even landscaping! Get over yourselves, people.
 
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