[JBernardK]

Before OTA was implemented there was lots of talk here about how great the new tuner would be. Well since it has been implemented I have seen little on the performance and quality of OTA. I understand there are some issues with mapping the local channels to the guide, but how is the picture? Do you pick up more stations with this than you did with the HR10 or other OTA tuner?

 

[hasan]

Before OTA was implemented there was lots of talk here about how great the new tuner would be. Well since it has been implemented I have seen little on the performance and quality of OTA. I understand there are some issues with mapping the local channels to the guide, but how is the picture? Do you pick up more stations with this than you did with the HR10 or other OTA tuner?

The picture quality is FANTASTIC, as I would have expected. The tuners can be "picky", but it's not clear what the cause of the pickiness is. I've done a bunch of experimenting, and it took me a few hours to optimize my system based on antenna gain and gain distribution (preamp+splitters+attenuator). The HR20 tuners appear to have much less dynamic range (weakest viewable > strongest viewable), than the tuners built into HDTV sets themselves. This is certainly true of my Sammy...it is much more "forgiving" of impedance bumps, and strong/weak signal levels than the HR20.

So, I'm overjoyed to have OTA-HD in HR20. PQ is every bit as good as I had expected, recordings have gone beautifully. I'm missing some channels in the guide, but they are minor. I get all major networks and PBS.

Some people are having low-VHF channel problems and I don't think they have been fixed. All my OTA-HD is currently on UHF.

No, I don't get more channels with my HR20 OTA tuner than I do with my Sammy. The tuner in the Sammy is far superior (presently) to the HR20, but I can live with it. I never had an HR10.

 

[bonscott87]

PQ: It's a digital signal, you either have a super signal or you have nothing. Any PQ issues will be due to your local stations and any issues they have (like my CBS which bit starves the HD channel).

As for the tuner, it's better then my older receiver. I pick up a station I didn't before, but I also have the low VHF issue. It's better for some, not for others.

 

[cjhrph]

I can tell you that the tuner in the HR20 is damn good. Same with the H20. I am getting reception under very difficult circumstances. 700ft below the crest of a hill that is between myself and the transmitters 40miles away. I have used many different generations of OTA set top decoders (eg. LG, Samsung) and can tell you without hesitation that the tuner in the HR20/H20 is very sensitive and deals with multipath quite well.

If your having multipath issues, you should try a long uhf-yagi style antenna with a narrow reception window. The Channel Master 4248, Winegard PR-9032 (and others), Antennas Direct 91XG are good choices. Get it on the roof as high as possible and use a very good quality low-noise preamp if necessary. Channel Master 7775 or 7777.

I do wish that the HR20 would allow me to scan for channels like the H20 did. This needs to be implemented soon.

 

[RCinFLA]

It not that you have a super signal or not, you have a super picture or not.

There are three primary things that matter on the RF signal.

Obviously, the first criteria is signal strength.

Second and third are multipath and intermod.

In the old days of analog, multipath equaled "ghost" on the picture. This is caused by reflections from objects in the coverage area. It could be a mountain, steel bridge, or even a bill board. Because the signal is reflected it has a slightly longer path to your antenna then the direct path signal. You could live with it if you had to in analog world. For the ATSC transmission of multi-level encoded digital words, the receiver demodulator has a lot of trouble with time delayed muliple copies of the transmission. Newer signal processing techiques are improving ability to get the bits out correctly from multipath transmissions. Directional outdoor antenna can help.

I would say the Hr20 is fair in this category but not as good as some of the new chipsets. My Samsung does a little better.

I have a multi-outdoor antenna system to pick up stations from different directions. Because I have the mulitple antennas I am asking for multipath problems. I have traps and filters before combining, but for the HD reception, my toughest issue is getting the multipath down to acceptable levels. My most difficult stations are also the closest stations of only three or four miles away. The 45-50 mile away stations are no problem. I get 25 OTA HD channels presently, from Ft. Pierce,FL to Miami stations.

The third killer is intermodulation distortion. The receiver itself is not the problem, it usually is due to an antenna amplifier put on the antenna. It is sort of the American way, if one aspirin is good, two must be better. I have seen a lot of bad reception because of amplifier put in line.

You may think an amplifier will help a far away, weak station but all the nearer, strong signal channels can overload the amp and create cross modulated interference products that destroy even the good signal strength channels. If you put in an amplifier, get one with high third order intercept point, or in other words, good large signal handling capability. High dbmV output does not mean good large signal handling performance. It might just mean high gain. Use as little gain as does the job (make up cable loss).

 

[cjhrph]

Apparently, Im not suffering from #3. For my location no amplifier = no TV.

 

[kaminsco]

Some people are having low-VHF channel problems and I don't think they have been fixed. All my OTA-HD is currently on UHF.

I can confirm the low VHF channel problems, Cleveland's local NBC HD affilate is on vhf channel 2, strong signal. TV has no problem, the HR20 cannot pick up..the 771 error.

I can also confirm the turners are not as good as my TV either. I can pick up PBS HD affiliate on the TV but, not on HR20.

 

[cjhrph]

I can also confirm the turners are not as good as my TV either. I can pick up PBS HD affiliate on the TV but, not on HR20.[/QUOTE]

Many people seem to report this. For me, this isn't the case. Do you have antenna mounted with a rotor? In my experience, using two different tuners with the antenna aimed in the exact same spot can produce very different results. Especially when dealing with weak signal/multipath, etc. At my location, some of my channels have a very narrow receive window - about 4 degrees.

 

[patsrule316]

Prior to the HR-20, my only experience with over-the-air digital reception was with my rooftop antenna and a Hughes directv box manufactured in 2002. With that box, I would get tons of breakup, with rare exceptions during the winter. I live about 50 miles from the broadcast centers of Washington DC, and live in a wooded area. With the HR-20, I have yet to have a breakup, although it is still winter, so the trees between my house and the signal don't have leaves. For now, I am very happy with the HR-20, but I will have a big test coming around march or april when the leaves come back.

 

[kaminsco]

I can also confirm the turners are not as good as my TV either. I can pick up PBS HD affiliate on the TV but, not on HR20.

Many people seem to report this. For me, this isn't the case. Do you have antenna mounted with a rotor? In my experience, using two different tuners with the antenna aimed in the exact same spot can produce very different results. Especially when dealing with weak signal/multipath, etc. At my location, some of my channels have a very narrow receive window - about 4 degrees.[/QUOTE]

It is not on a motorized rotor but, I a manually one which is me. I have rotated it several times to try fix it. Actually mapped it's direction with information from antennaweb.org, used compass and played with it several times. I even installed a pre-amp. The PBS channel comes in and out on the HR20, low signal strength in and out of the 30's.

TV holds signal with no problem, signal strength in the 60.

Not an expert with this stuff but, simple conclusion would be that the turner in HR20's are not as good as the TV's.

thanks,

 

[hasan]

You said,

"I will have a big test coming around march or april when the leaves come back."

That is VERY true...I'll be looking at the same thing. UHF is very sensitive to vegetation loss. I have one channel that could be problematic. Being anal on the RF side, I am constantly looking at signal strength. I measure it at least daily.

 

[veryoldschool]

You said,
"I will have a big test coming around march or april when the leaves come back."
That is VERY true...I'll be looking at the same thing. UHF is very sensitive to vegetation loss. I have one channel that could be problematic. Being anal on the RF side, I am constantly looking at signal strength. I measure it at least daily.

We're on the same RF side, but for me it isn't leaves [I have pine trees] but temperature. Best signals in the winter & loss of most by mid summer. Those damn mountains keep getting in the way of my antenna, giving me a shadow...

 

[hasan]

We're on the same RF side, but for me it isn't leaves [I have pine trees] but temperature. Best signals in the winter & loss of most by mid summer. Those damn mountains keep getting in the way of my antenna, giving me a shadow...

If I really wanted that signal, and since you do get it in the winter, I would try the following in the summer:

Get the highest gain UHF (assuming you are on UHF) antenna I could find....like the XG71 or 71XG (can't keep it straight), then mount it so you can tilt it upward a few degrees.

Shoot (using line of sight) right at the top of the mountain edge in the direction of the transmitter, of course. This takes advantage of a phenomenon called "knife edge diffraction". This might allow you to get the signal in the summer as well as winter. It's a lot to go through with no certainty of success, but I have used knife edge diffraction before with good results. The more "abrupt" and the more "wide the transition from solid (mountain) to free space, the more pronounced the diffraction is and the better the signal.

 

[veryoldschool]

If I really wanted that signal, and since you do get it in the winter, I would try the following in the summer:
Get the highest gain UHF (assuming you are on UHF) antenna I could find....like the XG71 or 71XG (can't keep it straight), then mount it so you can tilt it upward a few degrees.
Shoot (using line of sight) right at the top of the mountain edge in the direction of the transmitter, of course. This takes advantage of a phenomenon called "knife edge diffraction". This might allow you to get the signal in the summer as well as winter. It's a lot to go through with no certainty of success, but I have used knife edge diffraction before with good results. The more "abrupt" and the more "wide the transition from solid (mountain) to free space, the more pronounced the diffraction is and the better the signal.

Been there, done that.
Two big UHF winguards [highest gain listed], phase matched, pointed, tilted, etc.
It really is a wonder I get anything in my little valley.

 

[cjhrph]

"The PBS channel comes in and out on the HR20, low signal strength in and out of the 30's. TV holds signal with no problem, signal strength in the 60. Not an expert with this stuff but, simple conclusion would be that the turner in HR20's are not as good as the TV's."

I hear you, but your not comparing apples to apples. One tuner says signal strength of 30 and the other says 60 doesn't mean a thing. There is no standard here.

OTA reception is a bit of a black art and highly location dependent with too many variables to list. If your getting reception off one tuner (TV) and not the HR20 you need to find another location for the antenna and or rotate it very slowly (rotor 1deg increments) to find the best possible signal.

 

[veryoldschool]

"The PBS channel comes in and out on the HR20, low signal strength in and out of the 30's. TV holds signal with no problem, signal strength in the 60. Not an expert with this stuff but, simple conclusion would be that the turner in HR20's are not as good as the TV's."
I hear you, but your not comparing apples to apples. One tuner says signal strength of 30 and the other says 60 doesn't mean a thing. There is no standard here.
OTA reception is a bit of a black art and highly location dependent with too many variables to list. If your getting reception off one tuner (TV) and not the HR20 you need to find another location for the antenna and or rotate it very slowly (rotor 1deg increments) to find the best possible signal.

While RF can have it's "magic" components. The HR-20 doesn't handle weak signals as well as the LG chip set in the H-20, or most new TVs.

 

[bonscott87]

While RF can have it's "magic" components. The HR-20 doesn't handle weak signals as well as the LG chip set in the H-20, or most new TVs.

I find the oposite where I get nothing for my local PAX station with my older tuner but the HR20 pulls it in at about 50 strength and a good lock. Not that I watch that station but I'm getting a station with the HR20 I didn't get before. Bonus.

Everyone is going to have a different experience. The HR20 OTA tuner will be better for some, worse for others. It's the same with all tuners in all receivers/TVs. Some are better at multipath for example. Like someone said above, OTA reception is very much an art in many locations and I can line up 3 different OTA tuners and 3 different results with the same antenna.

 

[Cobra]

I receive all channels whether I use the hr20 or plug the antenna wire straight to my tv. My problem is, I receive a better quality picture when I connect straight to my tv. I am not sure of the brand of antenna off hand, but a seperate contractor from my dtv install, put up what he called, " the best digital antenna available" and I am able to view a lot of stations, just better pq when I hook it straight to the tv. On another note, when I received this replacement hr20, everything was perfect, but as of late, there are times I am unable to receive hd channels, I check tuners 1 and 2 on signal strength, and there are times I am receiving 0 on the hd sats, but 95s on tuner 2. I have had this happen on 3 previous boxes where tuner 1 takes a dump, maybe I am headed there again

 

[Osmani]

Before OTA was implemented there was lots of talk here about how great the new tuner would be. Well since it has been implemented I have seen little on the performance and quality of OTA. I understand there are some issues with mapping the local channels to the guide, but how is the picture? Do you pick up more stations with this than you did with the HR10 or other OTA tuner?

I have to disagree with those saying the PQ on the HR20 is good in comparison to other units. I think it's horrible. On my old Tivo it had a lot of signal loss compared to plugging the OTA straight into the TV but it was at least watachable on some of the stations. On the HR20 none of them are watchable. I called advanced tech support and they readily admitted this was a common problem, that the HR20 has a significant signal degredation, in most but not all units. That was around a week to ten days after I got the download on December 22nd. It's a pain for me to move my TV so I waited that until I wanted to try and tape something to hoook it up. Thay said they were working on and they believed it was fixable with a software donwload. My neighbor has the same problem BTW. So I just plugged the OTA back into the Tv where I get a perfect signal and will just wait and see. Not the end of the world but I hope it gets fixed or improved.

 

[veryoldschool]

Everyone is going to have a different experience. The HR20 OTA tuner will be better for some, worse for others. It's the same with all tuners in all receivers/TVs. Some are better at multipath for example. Like someone said above, OTA reception is very much an art in many locations and I can line up 3 different OTA tuners and 3 different results with the same antenna.

I agree with you.
My sample of HD tuners: Sony HD SAT-300, H20-100, H20-600, FusionHDTV Gold Plus 5, HR20-700, & My new Sony FP XBR2.
Best to poorest:
1) Sony XBR2
2) H20-600 & FusionHDTV [LG chips]
3) H20-100, Sony HD SAT-300, HR20-700 [or maybe just below theses].
I have weak signals, multi-path, etc. so this is a "worst case" scenario, with a mountain, & 62 miles to towers.