[blkhouse]

I don't know why I keep wondering about this, since it will not happen for several years, but I keep thinking about what happens when OTA Locals must go HD. I am sorry if this seems to be a dumb question.

I know Satellite and Cable can still broadcast the private/premium channels in SD, with additional costs for HD versions of certain channels as they do now. There are only requirements for HD for OTA - at least that is what I can remember reading.

I have SD Locals and I don't know if HD users pay an additional amount for HD Locals as well as SD Locals.

When the lights go out what do people think will happen to Locals for customers with SD only Locals. Are we going to receive HD Locals downgraded to SD? Are we going to be forced to get HD Receivers to receive locals?

 

[James Long]

E* does not charge extra for HD locals ... subscribe to SD locals and meet the requirements for having an MPEG4 receiver (generally, subscribe to DishHD or pay $6 for not subscribing) and you get HD locals.

E* would like to downconvert digital TV so all markets can continue to receive all of their own locals. IIRC the FCC is resisting that move. At the moment there are no rules requiring the carriage of digital signals (including HD) ... but by 2009 I suspect the "carry one/carry all" will be carried over to digital and companies will have to find some way of carrying all or losing markets.

 

[Stewart Vernon]

There is no law that says all OTA must go HD at any point. There is a 2009 mandated analog shutoff (has been postponed a couple of times and might be again by the time we get there)... but that just means OTA will be forced to be all digital.

There has never been a mandate for HD OTA ever.

 

[BobS]

I don't know why I keep wondering about this, since it will not happen for several years, but I keep thinking about what happens when OTA Locals must go HD. I am sorry if this seems to be a dumb question.

First, you must understand that the two systems are "analog" and "digital." Digital includes both SD and HD programming (and everything in between). Right now most local markets are analog only. Some major markets have digital (in addition to analog). Once analog goes away (in slightly over 2, not several, years) then the only LIL to be had will be digital. How much, if any, HD content is provided and at what resolution is a matter for the individual stations/networks. The only restriction (generally speaking) is that a LIL digital signal cannot be crappier than a distant digital signal (in plain terms).

I know Satellite and Cable can still broadcast the private/premium channels in SD, with additional costs for HD versions of certain channels as they do now. There are only requirements for HD for OTA - at least that is what I can remember reading.

I have SD Locals and I don't know if HD users pay an additional amount for HD Locals as well as SD Locals.

Not with E* (at the moment).

When the lights go out what do people think will happen to Locals for customers with SD only Locals. Are we going to receive HD Locals downgraded to SD? Are we going to be forced to get HD Receivers to receive locals?

Again there is no such thing as "SD (digital) only locals." Do not confuse the encoding method (analog v. digital) with the different levels of digital resolution (SD, ED....HD). They are two separate concepts. All network affiliates provide at least some HD content, whether it be locally produced or network programming. You never have to get an HD receiver or HDTV. You will still get the programming whether or not it is sent it HD. It will just be converted to match your setup.

 

[BobS]

There is no law that says all OTA must go HD at any point. There is a 2009 mandated analog shutoff (has been postponed a couple of times and might be again by the time we get there)... but that just means OTA will be forced to be all digital.

There has never been a mandate for HD OTA ever.

But there is no digital network/station that provides NO HD programming whatsoever is there?

 

[BobS]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Don't confuse the poor boy!

E* does not charge extra for HD digital locals ... subscribe to SD analog locals and meet the requirements for having an MPEG4 receiver (generally, subscribe to DishHD or pay $6 for not subscribing) and you get HD digital locals in addition to analog.

E* would like to downconvert HD digital TV so all markets can continue to receive all of their own locals. IIRC the FCC is resisting that move. At the moment there are no rules requiring the carriage of digital signals (including HD) ... but by 2009 I suspect the "carry one/carry all" will be carried over to digital and companies will have to find some way of carrying all or losing markets.

DBS will have to be allowed (for a time) to down-res some markets. Otherwise the numbers won't add up. I suppose one could argue that many subscribers can get HD OTA, if they really want it and that would be a necessary evil during the transition phase. There is no doubt that the COCA provision will be applied to digital as well as a "downres one, downres all" (DODA?) provision.

 

[Jim5506]

But there is no digital network/station that provides NO HD programming whatsoever is there?

Absolutely, We have 2 local stations (ABC and CBS) that broadcast digital SD only, and will continue to do so until they replace their equipment and construct new towers. One of our stations that does HD on X.1 carried SD on X.3 until it was converted to "The Tube" last month. Many stations in smaller markets and Independent stations broadcast digital SD only because they do not have the resources to originate HD on their own and have no source for HD material.

 

[kenglish]

All OTA stations are being given a new 6 MHz TV channel (capable of about 19 MBps of digital 8VSB data) in exchange for their current 6 MHz analog channel.

Whether they put HD, or just a single free SD channel (required to be equal or better resolution than their current analog channel) is up to the station.

Those are the facts.....
Now back to the original question.

I don't think there are any laws, yet, that decide exactly what will happen. The "Big 4" network affiliates in many markets are going up on satellite in HD. Many others are still broadcasting SD, and are still being passed in SD by satellite and Cable. As the demand grows, and the stations/networks convert to HD (not just digital) programming, it remains to be seen, how many channels will be available. It's going to be an issue of bandwidth. Some stations and networks are hoping for "Digital (multicast) Must-Carry", which would allow them to have as many SD channels on Cable and Satellite as they have multicast channels....say, 5 different TBN or Daystar channels, or a Fox, a FoxHD, and a CW or Spanish channel....all from one local station.

I don't think the "powers that be" have really thought that far ahead.

 

[James Long]

DBS will have to be allowed (for a time) to down-res some markets.

They will? Perchance you could post the FCC decision supporting that and save me the trouble?

 

[harsh]

But there is no digital network/station that provides NO HD programming whatsoever is there?

In fact there are a number of them; I have two in my market. One has three SD subchannels and the other has four SD subchannels ("i" and three "religious" stations).

 

[grooves12]

But there is no digital network/station that provides NO HD programming whatsoever is there?

Yes, there are a lot of them... mostly independant stations that serve local communities. There are about 35 digital stations in my market and only 6 of them ever broadcast in HD.

 

[BobS]

They will? Perchance you could post the FCC decision supporting that and save me the trouble?

As far as I know there aren't any rules - yet. I don't know if the FCC has this on the docket. This is my opinion based upon the way they have behaved in the past. If a DBS is carrying local digital network signals, they will not be permitted to pick and choose which ones, if any, will be downconverted. If the network/station decides to do that on their own - no problem (for E*/D*). If for technical reasons there must be a (other than very temporary) conversion to SD only for one station, then they will be forced to do it for all to avoid giving a competitive advantage to the other networks.

As to SD-only stations, I consider failure to upgrade as voluntary and HD programming is available to them whether they can/will use it. But they are indeed non-HD in that case. Thanks to all who provided examples. I assume that this is a relatively small percentage of the stations that have digital signals?

 

[Stewart Vernon]

I have four local stations that are SD-only digital... One is MyNetwork, one is "i", another is a local Spanish-programming channel, and the other is a shopping channel.

There are also other times (PBS and CBS both do it from time to time) locally when my digital local is multicasting many SD digital subchannels instead of an HD one.

How the local station uses the allocated bandwidth of their channel is completely up to them... just after 2009 it will have to be digital usage only... but nothing ever mandated about HD.

Considering that HD is more expensive than SD for digital... and many stations in the country are not yet even digital (hence the 2009 forced cutoff date to encourage all of them to finally upgrade by then)... I will be VERY surprised if it doesn't take several years more after that before all OTA would be OTA-capable. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller stations never go HD as they will never have the budget or customer-base to support the money it would take for that.

Now... as for Dish and locals... currently Dish is getting a feed of the analog locals. I don't know if they pick it up over antenna and compress it or get a direct feed from the local station or if different markets do it differently... but after 2009 when that analog signal no longer exists... then Dish will either have holes in their channels OR will have to pick up digital broadcast feeds from the locals.

We will likely not know how that will be handled until the time comes.

 

[Jim5506]

Actually, more than 50% probably do not do HD, because the only sources of HD are the Big 4 networks plus CW and MYTV. That's 6 HD sources for the big market cities (20+ stations) so unless the station sees fit to go through the terrible expense of generating it's own HD, they have no choice.

Many small marked network stations are still SD and many large market stations are SD because thereis no economically feasable way to "get" an HD signal to transmitt.

 

[blkhouse]

Thanks for all the answers. I had forgotten that it was a digital conversion only.

I can not see a lot of conversion to HD right away, so the problem may not exist unless the local station decides to only broadcast in HD for cost reasons (not wanting to maintain two transmission) after the conversion. Correct interpretation? Anyway there will probably be time, to convert multiple television sets.

OT:
I am glad I still have a radio for emergencies, because I can barely get an analog OTA signal from the Seattle, Washington area, there is no way I could get a good digital OTA signal.

 

[kstuart]

You people are still assuming logic and consistency.

How about this true story? For one of the broadcast networks, in my area:

- No HD signal available OTA
- No HD signal available from the official DMA on any satellite provider
- Analog signal for that one network is only in mono and always has been (they have an HD broadcast in 5.1 - but see above two sentences) That analog mono signal is what is used by both satellite providers in this DMA.
- A Channel for that same network 70 miles away has a local translator tower that produces a poor signal that is legally "Grade B". Despite all of the above, in direct conversations with that channel they refuse to approve a waiver for anyone to receive a distant channel for that network - even though they are not the LIL satellite channel.

So, the alternatives are: just giving up and watching that LIL channel in mono, or having a second dish for some LIL channels and a huge antenna for fuzzy stereo for the other channel, or having cable for locals - although I left the local cable system originally because nothing was in stereo...

The idea that whatever happens in 2009 will be logical, rational, and have anything to do with the needs of consumers is pretty funny !

 

[Stewart Vernon]

OT:
I am glad I still have a radio for emergencies, because I can barely get an analog OTA signal from the Seattle, Washington area, there is no way I could get a good digital OTA signal.

Somewhat apples and oranges... If you can barely get an analog OTA signal, then you may get a nice digital OTA signal.

When OTA signal is weak, you get progressively less quality of picture... but when digital OTA signal is weak, it is harder to lock... but as long as there is a signal lock then you get the same quality of picture at 70% as you would at 100%.

Pixelation, breakups, temporary loss of signal happen with weaker signals and during some weather (rain, snow, fog, etc)... but if you get a good lock on a digital signal you get the same quality of picture as someone getting a stronger signal.

So... there is not necessarily a direct correlation with your analog OTA experience and your digital OTA experience.

Using myself as an example, I do not have an outdoor antenna. I have an indoor TV-top antenna... and using that, my analog reception is very poor. Weak, ghosty, snowy, on pretty much all of the channels.... but with the same antenna setup I get a solid lock on all the digital OTA broadcast in my area with high quality pictures and virtually no breakup except in some extreme weather days.

Ultimately, you don't really know what you can get unless/until you try.

 

[joblo]

DBS will have to be allowed (for a time) to down-res some markets.

They will? Perchance you could post the FCC decision supporting that and save me the trouble?

James, if you know of any FCC rulings that would prevent this even now, please post.

As far I know -- and admittedly I have not paid a lot of attention to this particular issue so maybe I'm not up to date -- there is no COCA requirement for digital signals, there is no requirement that local digital signals be carried at any particular bandwidth or resolution, and there is no restriction on the types of receivers to which these signals may be made available.

In fact, I find nothing in SHVERA that would preclude D* or E* from offering cherry-picked SD downconversions of HD signals in lieu of an analog LIL service in any given market today.

Nor is there anything preventing digital distants from being downconverted for SD receivers. Indeed, NPS is currently downconverting the Atlanta CBS HD signal for SD channel 5733, and I think they were using an ATSC signal for Atlanta ABC also, but they seem to have changed that now due to reception problems.

I do expect Congress will change the applicable laws before 2009, but again, if you know any pertinent FCC rulings, please post.

 

[grooves12]

Actually, more than 50% probably do not do HD, because the only sources of HD are the Big 4 networks plus CW and MYTV. That's 6 HD sources for the big market cities (20+ stations) so unless the station sees fit to go through the terrible expense of generating it's own HD, they have no choice.

Many small marked network stations are still SD and many large market stations are SD because thereis no economically feasable way to "get" an HD signal to transmitt.

Don't forget PBS...

 

[blkhouse]

Somewhat apples and oranges... If you can barely get an analog OTA signal, then you may get a nice digital OTA signal.

When OTA signal is weak, you get progressively less quality of picture... but when digital OTA signal is weak, it is harder to lock... but as long as there is a signal lock then you get the same quality of picture at 70% as you would at 100%.

Pixelation, breakups, temporary loss of signal happen with weaker signals and during some weather (rain, snow, fog, etc)... but if you get a good lock on a digital signal you get the same quality of picture as someone getting a stronger signal.

So... there is not necessarily a direct correlation with your analog OTA experience and your digital OTA experience.

Using myself as an example, I do not have an outdoor antenna. I have an indoor TV-top antenna... and using that, my analog reception is very poor. Weak, ghosty, snowy, on pretty much all of the channels.... but with the same antenna setup I get a solid lock on all the digital OTA broadcast in my area with high quality pictures and virtually no breakup except in some extreme weather days.

Ultimately, you don't really know what you can get unless/until you try.

Actually I kind of do. In front of the Dish, we have huge Douglas firs in the way, and we have gotten rain, snow, and tree swaying blinded. The dish can point in a direction that gets past the trees because my neighbors trees are sparser in that direction. The direction toward Seattle and OTA is covered with thick dense fast growing cedars of my neighbors and huge Douglas firs.

Very few neighbors successfully get OTA except in a fuzzy state and during the rains it is barely viewable (someone said only one). The OTA antenna would have to be external and be very, very tall - I can't afford it. I suspect digital would be acquirable but would lose lock and be unreliable during bad weather.