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Whole bunch a questions

3010 Views 34 Replies 18 Participants Last post by  rudeney, 
C
I've had an old RCA receiver, self installed and subscribed since around 1997. It has worked wonderfully except for the incident when D* sent the destruction signal to brick the smart card. Then they told me that my access card "wore out". That really ticked me off.

I am considering adding a second receiver capable of HD reception for a new large screen LCD set I may buy for my wife's birthday next month. I only need SD for my set. The old receiver would suit that need since I have no need for HD to watch financial networks. The ten year old receiver is likely more than adequate for for my viewing. I want HD reception for the new set my wife will have.

I sent questions to D* customer service. I didn't get clear answers. My search for information brought me here, where folks know what's going on. I do not want installation. In fact, I will do without service before I ever let another installer in my home to disrupt my life. I won't let another installer on my property after my horrible experience with a Wildblue Installer who had the D* logo on his truck. He failed to show for three appointments. Then he tried to call with thirty minutes notice to say he was ready to install during forty knot winds, lightning and darkness. He wanted to do the install at 6AM and then he wanted to do the install at 9PM. No, I'm not getting up at 6AM for anyone. I won't go through this crap again. Besides, One cannot do a properly grounded, wires hidden and nicely installed system for the amount of money they pay installers anyway. No one works for free and this is a fair amount of work to do the job right. So there is no reason to start off the experience on the wrong foot when I know there's half a day's work of fishing wires, dish mounting and related wiring to suit my needs.

The answer I got from D* customer service was that I need an H20, H21 or recorder versions of the same. I also would need the 5 LNB dish and a b-band converter. Then they don't give any explanation of what this various gear is, other than show me a picture of the 5LNB dish. The didn't sent any explanation about leasing, purchasing, installation etc. They didn't send pricing, links to the required equipment or relevant information. This left more questions than answers. Their links to receivers didn't give model numbers. It only describes receivers as SD, HD, with recorder etc. I don't find OTA capability explained. I don't find the b-band converter explained anywhere on their site. I don't find it's interconnection explained anywhere.

Their web site does not give the model number for the HD receiver. I have to come here to discover that the H21 won't get OTA signals. This is a deal breaker for us because of PBS and other local market signals. It's not explained anywhere I can find on D* website. I read here the H20 is being discontinued, but there are some of them still around. Is there any disadvantage to the H20 compared with the H21? What about heating issues with the H21? Maybe I should wait until the products are mature in 2009 and are replaced with new models? I am not in any rush.

I seem to need the H20 so we can get PBS and other over the air signals. There seems to be no means to select which product I get unless I order installation and then haggle with the installer don't show up with an H21. No, I don't want installation. I won't permit it. I will do without D* first.

I looked on some reseller web sites. The explanations are just as vague. Some say they have the H20 and list a price. Then instead of explaining if this is a sale or a lease, they refer to D* terms and conditions. Damn, this is frustrating.

There is no explanation in the D* email weather the 5LNB dish comes with the receiver. What about the b-band converter. And why is this extra converter even needed? Why isn't it incoroporated in the latest receiver or the dish/lnb assembly? It sounds like a bandaid. I can't find any explantions on their website that explain if the 5LNB or b-band convertor come with the receiver. I also can't find any manual online that shows the interconnection of the 5LNB dish, bbc and the receivers. There's lots of information on how to push buttons on the remote controls to order ppv. :sure:

I have not found any explanation about the difference between lease and owning. I own my current receiver. I see new ones are leased or owned but there is no explanation, choices presented or prices about self installing and owning. Then there is this monthy protection offer. I don't understand. If I lease equipment, then it is the lessor's responsibility to maintain their equipment in good working order unless there is negligence on my part. Why would I have to pay $70 per year to warrantee equipment I don't own? This is BS. Is this $70 to cover D* sending another nuke signal to wipe out my access card and tell me it "wore out"?

I just want to buy an HD receiver outright, add it to my system and install it myself. If I need the 5LNB antenna and a b-band converter, I need to know that cost. Why can't they answer? I might consider the recorder version, but it's not even clear from the D* website if there is an additional recurring subscription cost for that feature. I don't really need that feature, but I might be willing to pay an extra hundred to have it in new gear I will have for a while. I wouldn't pay even $2 per month for the recording feature because I have little use for it.
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Doug Brott
Lot of questions, but I'll give you a short and quick version .. I'm sure some other folks will jump in (perhaps in the morning) to give you a better answer than I will now.

You will need to either get a 5-LNB dish on your own and do your own installation or have this installed by DIRECTV. You will not be able to get any HD programming without it - regardless.

You may be able to pick up a leased receiver at a Best Buy or Big Warehouse Store (Costco) near you. you would not need an installer to come for this. A Lease is usually OK for most people because the per-month cost to you is the same, regardless and the only benefit may be your ability to sell it to someone if you ever decide to get rid of it .. since you've had the same receiver now for 10 years, I'd venture to guess that a lease would be a really good option for you.
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bjamin82
The best thing for you to do is call up D* and tell them you want to upgrade to an HD setup. They will offer you an HD reciever or an HD-DVR reciever... The HD is about $99 and the HD-DVR is about $199 depending on the deal... An installer will come out and set it all up for you and install the new dish. They will most likely try and charge you for an install, but since you have been a customer for 10+ years, I am sure you can work something out where it would be free...

When you do this, they will upgrade your package to the latest and greatest. When they do that, the first receiver is "free" meaning you won't have a $4.95 lease fee. The second receiver is always an additional $4.95 weather your leasing it from them or buy one outright. Even if you go down to Best Buy or find an HD receiver on ebay or where ever, you will always pay $4.95 per receiver on your account.

Why do you need OTA? Are your locals not available over the dish it self? With the addition of the new sat, D11, that is about to go active, there is a good chance you will not need OTA.

I understand you want to do the install your self, but you will have to purchase the dish, if you have them install it, it would be free.

Also, check here... http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3420013

and here

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4380122

A lot of your questions will be answered... i.e. "What is a b-band converter?"
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S
It can be confusing, but many of your questions can be answered by the DirecTV web site if you log in to your account and walk through the upgrade path without actually ordering at the end. To answer a couple specifics...

You won't find model numbers because DirecTV only deals with the basic receiver type... if you order a standard HD receiver (non-DVR) you might get an H20, an H21 or the new H23 (which by the way doesn't need the BBC module). It all depends on what's available at the warehouse. The only way to get a specific model is to pick one up at a retail outlet or online dealer (these will be leased). In fact it is difficult but not impossible to buy a receiver since DirecTV went to the lease model. You have to deal with them direct and instead of $99 for a leased HD receiver, you'll have to pay more like $300 to own one. If you own the receiver and it fails after the warranty period, you're on the hook for a new one. If you lease and it fails, the most you'll pay is the shipping.

Right now the H21 and H23 have no OTA option, but it is believed that the AM21 OTA tuner, which is available now for the HD DVRs, will eventually work with the regular receivers too.

The 5 LNB dish and installation are free with the HD upgrade, but they won't send you the dish for DIY installation. If you insist on doing it yourself, you have to buy the dish from a dealer or online seller. BBCs come with the receiver where needed.

There isn't a lot of information on the DirecTV site about connections, etc. because they no longer support DIY installation. The 5 LNB dish has four outlets and can feed four tuners directly (one tuner per regular receiver, two tuners per DVR). The BBC modules go inline between the cables from the dish and the receiver and are only needed for HD receivers (except the H23). The BBC modules convert the signals from the new Ka low band sats to something in the range of the tuners in the receiver.
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JLucPicard
Crunchy,

Welcome to DBSTalk! :welcome_s

You've come to the right place for the questions you have.

I would take with a grain of salt the statements that there will be free installation, well meaning as they may be. DirecTV will offer free "standard" installation, but from what you've explained in your post about your installation needs, I'd be willing to bet that would not be free (and there is no standard list of costs for certain things [like wall-fishing, etc.], so there's no way to tell how much extra your installation would be). What may be an option for you would be to get the proper cabling and do the wiring yourself, running cable to where you'll need it inside and terminating with plenty of cable to get to the dish location. The 5 LNB dish is larger and heavier than the dish I imagine you have now and needs to see a slightly larger field than the current dish, so it may or may not go where your current dish is. It is also more complicated to align than your current dish.

As for the OTA solution, there should be an OTA antenna input on just about any new LCD HDTV you would be purchasing, so if your DirecTV receiver doesn't have that ability (which is likely), you should still be able to get all the OTA you need using your TV's tuner.

And not to be a prick, but you may want to take a breath and throttle back the frustration when you talk to DirecTV - the whole "honey versus vinegar" thing is strongly in play here, unfortunately.

You're doing yourself a huge favor by coming here and researching things fully. By the time you act on the upgrade, hopefully all your questions will be answered and expectations will be pretty well in line.

Good luck, sir! :)
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say-what
If you do the HD upgrade through DirecTV, you're going to get the Dish and install free and maybe pay a nominal fee for the receiver.

If you do the install yourself, you're going to have to buy a dish for about $99+shipping, get the receiver (H20/21/23 for about $99 or HR20/21 for about 199). You're also going to have a lot more work peaking the new dish, it's not as simple as the older models and it's important to do the fine tuning or your signals for the HD channels will suffer.

You could hire your own installer, but you'd have to negotiate your own deal with them.

The only way to ensure you get an H20 or HR20 is to get one yourself from a retailer. As for getting an H20, they're becoming scarce. I believe I saw a few at one of my local Best Buys a few months ago, but you're more likely to find the H21. HR20's have been discontinued for almost a year and about all DirecTV has are refurbs and a few retailers may have one or two in stock. Not sure if any of the online sites have any of either 20 series model. The HR21 has an add on OTA tuner, the AM21. Regardless of where you get the box, it's going to be leased.
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JLucPicard
They will most likely try and charge you for an install, but since you have been a customer for 10+ years, I am sure you can work something out where it would be free...
Click to expand...
The 5 LNB dish and installation are free with the HD upgrade, but they won't send you the dish for DIY installation.
Click to expand...
If you do the HD upgrade through DirecTV, you're going to get the Dish and install free and maybe pay a nominal fee for the receiver.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the fact that people are trying to be helpful and all, and no disrespect intended, but I think telling the OP the installation would be free by going through DirecTV is not the most helpful approach. Yes, they do included free "standard" installation, but from the Crunchy's own post:

Crunchy said:
Besides, One cannot do a properly grounded, wires hidden and nicely installed system for the amount of money they pay installers anyway. No one works for free and this is a fair amount of work to do the job right. So there is no reason to start off the experience on the wrong foot when I know there's half a day's work of fishing wires, dish mounting and related wiring to suit my needs.
Click to expand...
Maybe there's an installer that could chime in here, but if you were faced with the above - even if it might be noted on the work order (which is unlikely anyway) - would you be doing that install for free?

Aside from the fact that it seemed pretty clear that he doesn't want an installer anywhere near his house, he's coming here to get clear answers and I really would hate to see him feel the install was free only to have the installer show up, talk through the install he desires, then say, "OK, I can do that. It'll be $xx.xx (or even $xxx.xx)." I can't see that being a good way to get things started.

:shrug: I'm just sayin'.
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B
JLucPicard said:
I appreciate the fact that people are trying to be helpful and all, and no disrespect intended, but I think telling the OP the installation would be free by going through DirecTV is not the most helpful approach. Yes, they do included free "standard" installation, but from the Crunchy's own post:

Maybe there's an installer that could chime in here, but if you were faced with the above - even if it might be noted on the work order (which is unlikely anyway) - would you be doing that install for free?

Aside from the fact that it seemed pretty clear that he doesn't want an installer anywhere near his house, he's coming here to get clear answers and I really would hate to see him feel the install was free only to have the installer show up, talk through the install he desires, then say, "OK, I can do that. It'll be $xx.xx (or even $xxx.xx)." I can't see that being a good way to get things started.

:shrug: I'm just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Good answer you proved you can read and understand the OP and use common sense in clarifying the facts. for others with good intentions.
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C
JLucPicard said:
I appreciate the fact that people are trying to be helpful and all, and no disrespect intended, but I think telling the OP the installation would be free by going through DirecTV is not the most helpful approach. Yes, they do included free "standard" installation, but from the Crunchy's own post:

Maybe there's an installer that could chime in here, but if you were faced with the above - even if it might be noted on the work order (which is unlikely anyway) - would you be doing that install for free?

Aside from the fact that it seemed pretty clear that he doesn't want an installer anywhere near his house, he's coming here to get clear answers and I really would hate to see him feel the install was free only to have the installer show up, talk through the install he desires, then say, "OK, I can do that. It'll be $xx.xx (or even $xxx.xx)." I can't see that being a good way to get things started.

:shrug: I'm just sayin'.
Click to expand...
JLucPicard, You have it right! You read my question! Others said I don't need this or that. To install the system the way I want it done will take half a day and probably longer. No one works for free and I wouldn't expect someone to work for free. I also don't pay the car dealership for tasks I can accomplish for free without their professional intervention. Maybe that is why my cars last decades. :hurah:

I have a lightning protection system on the home and to meet NFPA, it requires specific bonding and grounding to the system that I understand and which I designed for this home. I am a retired EE. To me this is like telling an auto mechanic that you can buy an air filter for your new car, but you get "free installation" for $99 unless it takes longer than a "standard" air filter installation. And the air filter is leased for two years. Or you pay penalty? I know a few mechanics who won't let the dealer touch their car, even under warranty and especially for free and with good reason.

I want to buy the equipment outright and install it myself. To do that, I need specifications for the equipment and the interconnection diagrams. All I find on D* web site is that I can order "free installation" with a $99 HDTV receiver of their choice with a two year obligation. I already have a standard receiver. I plan to keep that while adding the HDTV to the system. I assume I can attach the HDTV receiver and a legacy receiver to the 5LNB dish, but golly, the information is not offered anywhere on D* web site.

I want to pick the receiver myself. I want to mount the dish to my own existing concrete anchored pipe (from the abandoned WildBlue dish). I want to ground it myself, because I have a lightning protection system on the home and everything has to be bonded correctly to code so there won't be damage to the home when lightning strikes. Lightning has hit this system while the TV and sat receiver were on. They kept running. Tell me about one of these free installations surviving a direct hit when the coax enters through the attic instead of directly at the grounded building entry.

I am looking for specifications for the equipment, and a place to buy the equipment outright for a reasonable price. I haven't been able to find clear descriptions of the equipment or even what is included in the carton.

The information from D* email inquiry was vague. It said I needed a 5LNB, a b-band conveter and an HDTV receiver. They didn't explain how to buy these or what this will cost without installation. I can picture how this connects, but the information is not offered anywhere. I go to their links for the receiver and I don't find an offer to sell it without installation. The description doesn't give specs for the receiver. I want off air reception from my master antenna system. I am between Washington DC and Baltimore and I receive signals from both markets, even during times the dish is knocked out from bad weather. And there is also PBS and perhaps Hagerstown, Maryland markets if I aim the antenna that direction. Will D* provide all these without additional cost?

None of the descriptions explain if their HDTV receiver (which has no specs and is not described by part number there), comes with the 5LNB dish or the b-band convertor. The description doesn't say if it can receive of air. The D* information describes a "lease" but then doesn't say what that lease costs. Worse, they offer a warranty package to insure "leased" gear they own against failure. This is contrary to all notions of leasing as I understand leases. Would you rent a home and be obligated to maintain the roof if it leaks? If property belongs to someone else, it is their worry if it breaks. If I own the equipment, I might want to buy an extended warranty. I call that insurance.

I do read about a two year agreement with cancellation fee. I won't agree to that. I would probably stay more than two years since I have stayed the last ten without such an abusive clause, but I won't enter an abusive contract. This sort of stuff is why I have a "pay as you go" cell phone instead of a "free" phone.

What I want to know is where to find the specs, where to buy the equipment outright, an how to subscribe it without service commitment.

If the answer is I can't buy it that way, I can do without. It's just TV.
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JLucPicard
I think the only receiver you can get now without a commitment is the HR21Pro because you have to actually buy as owned, it is not a lease. And I'm not entirely positive if I'm right about this. All the others are leased, unless you buy them at a premium price through DirecTV directly (which is a rare situation).

You can obtain them from places like SolidSignal.com, but those are also going to be leased receivers and come with a commitment. I believe you can also obtain the dish through them and they have some videos detailing the installation of the dish. The manuals that come with the receivers do have the basic "how to connect" drawings, but they are not technical schematics.

If the commitment aspect is a deal breaker, though, then DirecTV may not be for you.

I'll leave the more solid answers for the more knowledgeable folks.
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C
how r u watching ota on your 10 year old rca. i don't remember them having ota turners in them just pass thou. if u get a new lcd tv with a turner you don't need one in the D* reciever, just split your master antenna cable to the new tv.
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B
Do a google search for Directv HR21-Pro you should be able to find all the information you need about $595.00.
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carl6
Crunchy said:
What I want to know is where to find the specs, where to buy the equipment outright, an how to subscribe it without service commitment.

If the answer is I can't buy it that way, I can do without. It's just TV.
Click to expand...
I think these questions have already been answered in this thread, but to re-itereate:

You need an HD receiver or DVR. The receivers are the H20, H21 or H23. The DVRs are the HR20, the HR21, or the HR21 Pro. Regardless of where you obtain the H2x or HR2x products (with the exception of the HR21 Pro), they will be leased and you will have a service committment. The HR21 Pro can be purchased to own. I do not know if there is a service committment with that.

You need a 5-LNB dish. You can obtain that on-line from value electronics, solid signal, or other vendors.

You say you are not willing to consider a lease with a service committment. That is your option, but it does have some advantages. Leased receivers will be replaced and/or upgraded as required (perhaps requiring shipping charges), where owned receivers are entirely at your expense if they fail after the initial 3 month warranty.

The service committment has a pro-rated early termination fee. The farther you are into the committment, the lower the termination fee. If you anticipate remaining customer, it shouldn't be a burden, other than in principle.

If you buy to own, then terminate you will be out more money than if you lease and terminate early. There is no financial advantage to owning.

If you have any other specific questions, please do ask. Hopefully you will find the answers here (even if they aren't the answers you want).

Carl
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mgtr
First, an H20 is all you need. It will get all the SD stations (inlcuding local PBS), and it will get your local stations in HD (if they broadcast in HD) and very likely PBS in HD within the next year.
Second, why fight City Hall? Call Directv and tell them you want to upgrade, and you need an H20 or equivalent (which comes with a BBC) and a slimline dish. They will say that is $99 and we can set up an install at such and such. If you are nice, you tell Directv that you would rather do the install yourself and would like a credit for that, and they will (probably) give you a $50 credit.
Third, you won't own the receiver, but who cares? If it breaks, you call Directv and they send you another for $20 shipping (unless you try to beat up on them).
With the rate of change in technology, I can about guarantee you won't be using this receiver for ten years. You can probably also get them to throw in a free SD receiver to replace your RCA.
Fourth, don't take the maintenance plan -- you don't want them messing with your install ever.
Fifth, don't argue with Directv rep, don't tell them you are an EE and know more than they do (of course you do, but you want their help). If you get a real jerk or the other end (and there are some), just thank them, hang up and redial.
Remember, this whole deal is a little like a cell phone -- they are willing to just about give you the phone as long as you subscribe to their system.
Lastly, as nother poster stated above, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Good luck!
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C
Where can I find the instruction manuals for the H20, H21, H20dvr and H21dvr online?
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B
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3490010
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carl6
On the directv web site. Here is the link for the DVR manual:

http://www.directv.com/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf

Carl
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K4SMX
Crunchy said:
.....I want to mount the dish to my own existing concrete anchored pipe (from the abandoned WildBlue dish)......
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with the WildBlue dish mount, but the DirecTV Ka/Ku dish mounts require an exactly 2" O.D. pole. If your current pole is anything other than that, you'll have to adapt it to 2" in a very secure and plumb manner.
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C
K4SMX said:
I'm not familiar with the WildBlue dish mount, but the DirecTV Ka/Ku dish mounts require an exactly 2" O.D. pole. If your current pole is anything other than that, you'll have to adapt it to 2" in a very secure and plumb manner.
Click to expand...
The WildBlue dish required a 2.00" pipe or a "pipe adapter" for those who wrongly used plumbing pipe. I installed 2.00" DOM structural tubing, so I should be in good shape there.

I discussed the installation with a CSR who agreed to have an installer mount and aim the 5LNB dish to my existing pole and commission/subscribe two HR21's and provide one AM21. I was to run all the internal cabling. That solve my concern about tearing up my house, drilling holes or stapling coax to my interior walls.

Half an hour later, I get a confirmation email where all the agreement we just made was replaced with the standard boilerplate for "HD receivers" and "standard installation" and "won't provide OTA reception".

This feels like dealing with a used car dealer. You negotiate for a Lexus and the contract comes back from the sales manager for a "four wheel car" and then the spare tire is removed from the trunk. I'm pretty discouraged now and may just wait for fios since I see the orange conduit buried just up the road.

Anyway, thank you everyone who helped me find the manuals and specifications for the equipment. Everyone has been a great help.
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K4SMX
The way the AM21 works is that after you activate the HR21(s) you call them back and then they can order it. It's sorta backassed, I know. If you do all the wiring as you said, that is a "standard installation" when the tech mounts and aims your dish and then hooks up your receivers, which come with BBC's in the box, in case that question never got answered. He'll be happy as can be not to have to do the wiring or install any type of dish mount.

You might want to call them back and make sure there's a note in your account records regarding the necessity for OTA and the AM21. Once you activate the HR's and order it, it should be free if you do not have HD locals available via satellite. Even if it weren't free, it's only $50 to buy it outright.

Make sure that order is for HD DVR receivers and not HD receivers. Otherwise, so far so good.
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